John 20v1 “early darkness”
GE:
God willing I want to reproduce here the discussion between John317 and myself on the translation and interpretation of John 20:1, extracted from another page and here presented, ordered to incidental sequence for the purpose of giving an uninterrupted overview so that EACH MAN can make his own and decisive conclusion about the matter from a complete impression of the discourse.
Of grave and immediate consequences is the translation of John 20:1 with very, very far reaching implications and consequences.
God be with you as you may read.
Krause:
Most people walk in and out of your life,
but FRIENDS leave footprints in your heart.
Moderator:
The subject is toxic.
GE:
I am God's dog; I live on the crumbs that fall off his table loaded with the Bread of Life!
Man, and am I having a feast! The guests at table wipe so much Bread off the table they scarcely taste a crumb themselves!
It's fine with me to go sniff for God's Word on the forum’s trash heap ... just fine, thanks!
Ja, I must scavenge among a lot of real toxic stuff from the regulars' smartly decorated tables; and sometimes even dig the Word out from under their vomit over me.
The Word's crumbs though have marvellous healing properties and never get bad or taste bad.
I'm a dog in my seventh heaven ... won't swop for any other
place on earth!
You are all cordially invited to come over for the Feast on the threads' trash heap, fellas! Discovered nice bones there buried deep or lying scattered all over! Just the stuff for a Bull Terrier!
... and of course, it's JUST THE PLACE FOR THOSE WHO LIKE A DOGS' BRAWL!
Gail:
???
GE:
???
GE:
A Bull Terrier is the best and dearest thing the English ever made!
Moderator has proved,
One,
That ‘toxic’ is more 'Christian' than to "welcome" a person with "open arms" with "access denied";
Two,
That point has been made; that point has been taken;
Three,
That it has become time to thank the Lord and sing praises to his Name, for his Word is alive and well and makes itself heard where it matters most;
Four,
That the same awareness is becoming more widespread by the day.
Therefore, thank you, clubadventist for the improvements you have achieved and your preparedness to accommodate persuasion contrary your own. It shows the real, Christian spirit of discourse!
“There is no fear in love.”
Only one thing disturbing about the present 'categorization' –
beggars can't be choosers I suppose - Truth will have to tolerate his next door neighbour, Heresy. I assume the age of 'theological discrimination' too, has seen its end among its offspring of 'integrated theology' ---while I have always been staunch conservative.
Yes; disappointing; if I don't admit I must lie.
Mark in 16:9 derives from John 20:11-17. And there, it says “Mary HAD HAD STOOD AFTER at the grave …”. So when Jesus appeared to Mary, it was not her first visit at the tomb; she had had before gone to the tomb ---much earlier in the morning of the night. So in Luke 24:1,10 we read that Mary and other women had gone to the tomb “in the deepest morning of night carrying their spices prepared and ready … but they FOUND NOT the body”.
Therefore midnight, and Jesus “was risen”, already!
But John 20:1,2 tells, “Mary Magdalene on the First Day of the week BEING EARLY DARKNESS STILL, comes to the sepulchre, sees the stone is rolled away from the tomb; runs back …”
Therefore “EARLY DARKNESS STILL” – “being DUSK yet on the First Day”, that is, just “after the Sabbath” as it says in Mark 16:1 AFTER SUNSET ---and Jesus “was risen”, already!
So WHEN did Jesus ‘arise’?
“… WHEN suddenly there was a great earthquake LATE ON THE SABBATH MID-AFTERNOON towards the First Day of the week.”
“… WHEN suddenly there was a great earthquake LATE ON THE SABBATH MID-AFTERNOON towards the First Day of the week ... EXPLAINED THE ANGEL to the women ...”
Matthew only, says, "Explained" / "Informed" / "Answered" / "Enlightened", 'apokritheis'.
Matthew only, tells the circumstances, accompanying events, day and time of day Jesus Christ must have arisen / must have been
raised from the dead.
"... and God the Seventh Day rested."
J317:
So, do you believe that instead of its being dawn, the text says it was dusk, BEFORE it got really dark?
Why do you translate "early darkness"?
As I tried to explain to you before, the Adjective / adverb prohi (early) modifies the verb erxetai (coming).
Prohi (early) doesn't modify skotias (darkness).
So Mary was coming early in the morning. It wasn't the early part of the dark as you think. It was early morning. It was early on the first day of the week. In fact, the word prohi (Strongs #4404) means "morning." See Matt. 16: 3, "and at morning [prohi]..." Also see Matt. 20: 1, "... early in the morning [prohi]..."
Prohi occurs 10 times in the New Testament, and all ten times it is translated "morning" or "early morning."
In Acts 28: 23, it is translated, "...from morning [prohi] till evening..."
Could you please explain according to the rules of Greek grammar and translation why you believe John 20: 1 should be translated "early darkness"?
GE:
Well, thanks, you said it, not I ---
“… the adjective/adverb prohi …” which means ‘Prohï’ (early) modifies Verb, “Mary was _coming early_”, ‘erchetai prohï” AS WELL AS the Noun, ‘erchetai MM prohï skotias eti ousehs’ (darkness) Genitive “early-OF-darkness … when yet / still”.
Then TOO, the Adverb ‘prohï’ (early) modifies the nearest and most relevant adverbial modifier, the following Participle, ‘ousehs’— ‘prohï ousehs’— ‘BEING early still”.
And vice versa, the Participle, ‘ousehs’, modifies “the adjective/adverb prohi”— “BEING : early”, ‘prohï ousehs’.
BUT ‘being early’ WHAT “still”? ---“being early darkness
still”! It wasn't the early part of the dark as I think; it was the early part of the night – ‘dusk’ / ‘early dark’ – as JOHN thought and could not help think, and, KNEW.
Why should I tell you the record if you can read it yourself?
Does Jesus appear to Mary at this visit?
Who, after this visit, goes to the tomb and “returns home again” from the tomb, and no Appearance still?
Does Mary even know if the body was still in the grave?
No! She knew nothing at all, what, that Jesus allegedly appeared to her because the time mentioned describes the time of the Resurrection supposedly?
Ag, and so I can go on with impossibilities all night and won’t arrive at anything constructive that happened.
So, No! Mary was the person who discovered the grave was opened. She was the one who informed everyone else of it.
Mary Magdalene set in motion every event that after her discovery happened.
She was the one who informed everyone else of it.
Absolutely logically that the women found one another and set off to anoint the body THEY ALL THOUGHT WAS STILL IN THE GRAVE “spices prepared and ready” Luke 24:1
Ag, hundred … thousand and one factors get involved … which all COLLIDE in catastrophic chaos if the tradition of one visit of everybody together at the tomb and Jesus at once resurrected and appeared is taken for granted. No wonder unbelievers and atheists prefer the Last Events and Resurrection to tear the Christian faith apart.
J317:
It was early morning. It was early on the first day of the week. In fact, the word prohi (Strongs #4404) means "morning." See Matt. 16: 3, "and at morning [prohi]..." Also see Matt. 20: 1, "... early in the morning [prohi]..." In Acts 28: 23, it is translated, "...from morning [prohi] till evening..."
Let's go real slow and look carefully at this again.
You're not understanding what you're reading in Greek or in Marshalls interlinear.
The Interlinear is giving you the translation of the Greek words, and it is giving you the word order of the Greek, but that is not the same as a translation. The translation is given to you in the side of the page. The translation puts the Greek in good English; the interlinear does not.
GE:
I understand; don’t you worry! ‘Words’ can have only so many meanings; they can’t have infinite infinitely different meanings.
It is not a true ‘translation given in the side’. [By the way, I don’t have an edition with a ‘translation given in the side’.] It cannot be a true ‘translation given in the side’ if it means something contrary the literal that is truthful even to the Greek word order! Though it may satisfy your expectations of what a true translation should be, if it’s contrary the syntactical meaning of the Greek, it isn’t a true ‘translation given in the side’.
The ‘interlinear’ that is “the translation of the Greek words”, translates Greek words in precise and perfectly understandable English. The ‘translation’ “in good English” is whispering its abracadabra wishes for fancies to come true, not openly – of course not! – but, with prejudices and objectives ‘in the side’ ---those namely that you identify with because you unconditionally accept the traditional meaning attached to John 20:1,2 which is that it records Jesus’ resurrection which it DOES NOT.
J317:
The Greek word order doesn't matter.
GE:
Precisely!
Neither does the English in this case. What matters in this case is omission of concepts, context, facts and functions and data of different sorts and nature and insertion of others and opposites in their place. Our whole conversation so far has been a case study and prime example.
J317:
The Greek word order doesn't matter. It isn't like English. In Greek, the words can be in almost any order, and it wouldn't matter.
GE:
Exactly, again! Greek word order (not always) wouldn’t matter. In John 20:1 it does not matter.
Why? Because Greek uses Inflection. It uses the Genitive of a Noun for example – as in the case of John 20:1. You IGNORE the Greek flat; and squeeze your presumptions in front of the reader’s nose to read, instead.
J317:
What matters in Greek is the change in the prefix and the suffix of the words, because they determine the relationship among the words. Greek is a highly inflective language, meaning most words in the Greek change their spelling according to what relationship they have to the other words in the sentence. English isn't a very inflective language. In English, word order is crucial, whereas in Greek it is not.
GE:
http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/580595.html#Post580595
A partial truth because NT Greek has progressively become an analytic language already(, meaning word order has become important for its understanding).*
[*Here both J317 and GE were seriously mistaken. See last part of discussion on phrases and clauses.]
“… the relationship among the words …” in John 20:1
is that of a phrase or clause;
of a subordinate phrase or clause with a meaning its own
within the context of the Sentence,
functioning Adverbially as a WHOLE
---not as independent “Greek words”
---“the relationship among the words” in the Sentence
with Verbs, “she comes”, “she sees” and “then she runs”
SIMPLY having been that of a Predicative Adjective with Adverbial meaning,
“On the First Day of the week Mary comes (… sees … runs) being early darkness still” LITERALLY,
‘Maria erchetai prohï skotias eti ousehs ... blepei … trechei’
J317:
How would you translate the following sentence---
alektora phonesai tris aparnesee me
Some people might transliterate it this way: alektora phonhsai tris aparnhsh me
Please translate the above, placing the punctuation marks where they belong.
GE:
Why? Are you not satisfied with the KJV in Matthew 26:75?
How do you expect me to translate the clause without the Adverbial Preposition ‘prin’, “before”?
Stop the pedantry. It’s off topic.
"And He went out, and wept bitterly."
O Jerusalem! O Jerusalem! Church of my parents and my youth!
J317:
I want to slow down the exchanges so that we make sure we're both understanding what the other is saying. Let each post look at a smaller number of issues.
Up to this point, you often only answer one of my questions after I have asked you several. And you also appear to me to have a misunderstanding of what you are reading in the books you refer to, including the Greek NT text.
J317:
"....Mary comes early, it being yet dark, to the tomb."
GE:
No; "Mary comes to the tomb on the First Day of the week, being early-of-dark still ..."
J317:
Gerhard, can you find a single English translation of the NT that gives the reading "being early-of-dark still"? If so, please quote it and give the title of the translation.
GE:
It is no habit of mine to read as many Versions as possible; on the contrary.
When I read translations it will be half a dozen or so which I have on my shelves. I seldom if ever shall google for more versions. I use the Greek; and shall rather use dictionaries, commentaries and grammars before I’ll resort to any translation
I’m not acquainted with.
My ‘field of study’ has been limited to certain ‘subjects’ of special interest to me. So I don’t say I have much of a knowledge of Greek generally --- far from it. I’ll also not claim I have a good or wide knowledge of the Bible. But on my subjects – in my field of study – I don’t stand back for anyone, God my only help and witness … through his Word his Written Word.
I am not bound by denominational bias; but I am bound by Protestant Confessional Faith and Reformation principles, the Apostolicum … Canons of Dordrecht … Sola Scriptura … Solus Christus … TULIP … you know them. I’m Reformed and Boer, through and through. But Christian first and last. “O that I may know HIM, and, the POWER OF HIS RESURRECTION” ---THEN I shall be a believer of the Sabbath, “the day the Seventh Day Sabbath-of-the-LORD GOD”. O Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner!
THEREFORE, dear John 317, whether I can find a single
English translation of the NT that gives the reading "being early-of-dark still" or not, I believe what “IS WRITTEN”; and that in John 20:1,2, is, p-r-e-c-i-s-e-l-y: "early-of-dark still being ", quote, ‘prohï skoti-AS eti ousehs’; title: ‘The Gospel of John’; author: John. Publisher and Sponsor: God.
Could you find easier or plainer, more down to earth or better understandable words in any language?
But don’t forget the context and chronological implication and physical facts of who and when and where and what, and without even thinking of this unequivocal time-phrase or clause, one is FORCED to SEE, that John 20:1,2 is the FIRST in a series of events that occurred consecutively THROUGH the night of the First Day of the week.
J317:
Prohi occurs 10 times in the New Testament, and all ten times it is translated "morning" or "early morning."
Observer:
Came - to see the sepulchre - That is, they set out at this time in order to visit the tomb of our Lord, and also to weep there, John 11:31, and to embalm the body of our Lord, Luke 24:1. St. Matthew omits Mary Salome, mentioned by Mark; and Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herod's steward, mentioned by Luke. The other Mary was the wife of Cleopas, and mother of James and Joses, mentioned before, Matthew 27:56. Were not Mary and Salome two distinct persons?
J317:
Lattimore translated Mark 16: 1,2 and 9 this way:
And when the sabbath was over, .... And very early on the
first day of the week they went to the tomb.... [9] Then after he had arisen early on the first day of the week...
John 20: 1-- "Early on the first day of the week, when it was still dark...."
As Lattimore says in his introduction to the Gospels, he kept as close to the Greek as possible.
GE:
Lattimore saying in his introduction to the Gospels, he kept as close to the Greek as possible, says with the word “possible”, that he could not translate other than what he understood or believed.
His translations of Mark 16:1, 2 and 9 is nothing wrong with although he could have translated in greater detail. But the main idea is correct … AND WAS ACCORDING TO GENERAL BELIEF. Lattimore translated John 20:1 while he held to the same GENERAL opinion under Christians for centuries before and today still.
That general conception is a single and simultaneous with the Resurrection visit at the tomb of all the women involved together.
INNUMERABLE contradictions discrepancies enigmas call it what you like are the DIRECT CONSEQUENCE of such a view and have been the subject of innumerable vehement ‘scholarly’ debates especially recently since “Who Moved the Stone?”.
The only way these contradictions can be explained --- none are resolvable --- is to have them all REMOVED; and the only way to do that, is to let every Gospel tell its own PART in the Drama. No Gospel gives the whole story. Each writer decided for himself which ‘sources’ he would use. Those who wrote later than Mark, knew about the Gospel or Gospels before them, and tried to fill in wherever they thought necessary. The solution does not lie in reconciling repetitions but in filling in the bigger historic whole.
That’s my view for what it may be worth to whomsoever.
And my view ALLOWS THE BETTER AND PRECISE AND ONLY POSSIBLE LITERAL AND CORRECT translation of John 20:1 ---which the predominant traditional view FORBIDS … and PREVENTED Lattimore to make.
The literal Greek is, ‘prohï skotias eti ousehs”. ‘Skotias’ is a Noun, Possessive, therefore, “being the early-OF-DARKNESS still” which is dusk after sunset before proper dark-of-night.
That makes perfect sense, because Mary’s discovery of the
moved away _STONE_ set off all the hustle and bustle of that night’s subsequent visits to the tomb. John 20:1-10 records the ‘EVENING’S’ events; John 20:11-17 records the Sunday morning’s events WHEN a gardener would come to his garden to begin his work ---sunrise, when “risen, He early on the First Day of the week appeared, first to Mary Magdalene.” Mark 16:9.
Observer:
NOW after the Sabbath was ended and it began to dawn, on the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene to the sepulcher, bearing the spices which she had prepared, and there were others with her. And as they were going, they said among themselves, who shall roll away the stone from the door of the sepulcher?
GE:
… an unholy witches’ decoction of,
1) Mark 16:1
because it says “after the Sabbath”
---but, not that Jesus rose,
but, that “the women went and bought spices”;
and of,
2) Matthew 28:1,
because it says “it began to dawn, on”
---but actually, literally, “in the Sabbath’s being-mid-inclining-daylight unto / towards / before the First Day”.
Therefore Matthew does not say, “it began to dawn, _on_”
---but, “it began to dawn, _towards_ the First Day”;
And Matthew does not say, “on the first day of the week”
---but, “on the Sabbath Day”;
and Matthew does not say, “after the Sabbath”
---but, “on / in Sabbath’s-time”;
and of,
3) John 20:1,
because it says “came Mary”
---but not, “bearing the spices which she had prepared”
but, “sees the stone taken away, then she runs”;
And John does not say, “it began to dawn”
---but, “while being early of darkness / dusk still”.
and of
4) Luke 24:1,
because it says “on the first day of the week bearing the spices”,
---but not, “Mary Magdalene”,
but, “it was Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary of James and other women” (verse 10);
and of,
5) Mark 16:2,
because it says “on the first day of the week”
---but not “as they were going, they said”
---not even “when going they might anoint Him”
---because that was "after the sabbath" verse 1;
---and not, “as they were going, they said”,
but, “They come at the tomb … and looking up at it observed the stone was cast up, out of the door, away from the tomb … and they said among themselves, Who will (have rolled) the stone away for us, it is so large?!”
What God has joined together let no man separate; what God has separated let no man patch up together!
Also as far as the TIMES-of-day the visits of the women at the tomb were made ---
First was John 20:1, “While being early darkness / dusk / evening still”
Then Luke 24:1, “Deepest morning of the night”
Then Mark 16:2, “Very early before sunrise”
Then Mark 16:9 / John 20:11-17, “Early on the First Day” = John 20:11-17 “… gardener …” (begins work)
Last Matthew 28:5 further “Jesus met them” – the women other than Mary Magdalene.
BEFORE ANY, Matthew 28:1-4.
After sunrise on Sunday morning, “… EXPLAINED the
angel to the women … Late in the end of the Sabbath Day BEFORE the First Day there was a great earthquake … and told them … He is not here, He is risen ….”
J317:
John 20: 1 says that the women came to the tomb early on the morning of
the first day of the week. It is obvious that Christ had risen a short time
before they came to the tomb.
Matt. 28: 1: "Now, the sabbath having passed, as it was growing light
toward the first day of the week, there came Mary...."
GE:
John 20:1 does NOT say “the women”;
John 20:1 does NOT say that “the women came”;
John 20:1 does NOT say that “the women came to the tomb early on the morning”.
And it is not so “obvious that Christ had risen a short time before”. Mary for sure did not get that impression; “a short time before” is a very relative concept.
Now, be so kind as to give us the Version you quote Matthew 28:1 from?
And please give us its date of publication?
It would also help if we might know who served on the translation committees.
For your information, dear John, here is the Greek of John 20:1, “Tehi de miai tohn sabbatohn Maria heh Magdalehneh erchetai prohï skotias eti ousehs eis to mnehmeion kai blepei ton lithon ehrmenon ek tou mnehmeiou, trechei oun …”
“blepei ton lithon … ek” ---“sees the STONE … away”;
“prohï skotias eti ousehs” ---“(the) early OF-dark still being” = ‘dusk’ = “being early darkness (before proper darkness) still …”
So yes, although Mary did not realise, that was a relative “short time” after Jesus had resurrected. To be exact, a little more than three hours. Here is the old so much more trustworthy KJV of Matthew 28:1 about “when suddenly there occurred a great
earthquake, “Late in the end of the Sabbath” from …
‘sabbatohn’:
“Sabbath’s” / “Sabbath’s-time” / “of-the-Sabbath-Day’s” / “in the Sabbath” / “on the Sabbath”;
‘opse sabbatohn’:
“late” / “ripe” / “full” / “fullness” / “extended” / “slow hours” ---all at the hand of REAL incidences of use.
Yes in fact “after” in Philostratus who perhaps could be interpreted as though he used ‘opse’ in Ablative, which means 100% = “late” / “ripe” / “full” / “fullness” / “extended” / “slow hours” = Genitive --- NO SINGLE EXCEPTION ever before and until Philostratus who made NO SINGLE EXCEPTION ever having used Ablative if not Genitive ---NOTHING different than plain Genitive in the end!
It’s not what I say --- it’s what all ‘old’ lexicons and actual ‘sources’, etcetera say. It is also what ‘new’ real lexicons etcetera
say with ONE exception ever.
Now guess which is the exception? The exception is “in _our_ literature”, “In uns. Lit.” (Bauer), in fact in our Christian New Testament ---in Matthew 28:1.
Surprising?
Not really. What would anyone expect if the whole world believes Jesus rose on Sunday? Who would care about what is really written?
So there you have your reason for and basis of the insect you are quoting for Matthew.
J317:
There's absolutely no connection between the "skirt of
Rome" and the translation, "first day of the week," in John 20: 1 and 19.
John 20: 1 says that the women came to the tomb early on the morning of the first day of the week. It is obvious that Christ had risen a short time before they came to the tomb.
Matt. 28: 1: "Now, the sabbath having passed, as it was growing light toward the first day of the week, there came Mary...."
Luke 24: 1: "On the first day of the week, as the dawn was just breaking, they came to the tomb..."
Mark 16: 1 and 2: "And the sabbath being past, Mary, the Magddalene, and the mother of James, and Solome, purchased aromatic spices in order that, having come, they might anoint Him. And very early in the morning of the first day of the week they came to the tomb, the sun having risen."
While it's true that none of those verses contain the words "Jesus was resurrected on the morning of the first day of the week," they all do offer strong circumstantial evidence that Christ's resurrection took place at the beginning of the first day of the week.
God did allow some changes to made, but none of those changes alter the fundamentals of the gospel or would cause
anyone to accept false doctrines.
It is likely that Mark did not write verses 9 to 19, and that these verses were added because it was thought that Mark 16: 8 ended the Gospel too abruptly. We can accept added verses because they agree with the rest of the Gospels. They were probably added sometime in the first century and by someone whose authority the believers accepted. I accept them as authentic even if Mark himself did not write them.
Do you really believe that God inspired men to write the truth of the gospel of Christ only to allow it to be altered and perverted by Satan?
GE:
God allowed changes to the Scriptures since the twentieth century and the “increase of knowledge” unprecedented in the history of mankind more than ever before and CERTAINLY a sign of the soon Return of Christ for ANY Christian. Those changes are NOWHERE so thorough and complete – and OBVIOUS AND MEANINGFUL – as in the Scriptures regarding the days and the times of the days in the Last Week before and after Jesus’ Resurrection.
Open your eyes to reality!
Those changes ALTERED the fundamentals of the Gospel and CAUSED MILLIONS – no, BILLIONS of CHRISTIANS UNKNOWINGLY to accept the false doctrine built upon and around the single FALSE PRESUMPTION of a ‘Sunday-resurrection’.
J317:
I'm not talking about changes in translations. I'm talking about changes in the manuscripts so that they teach false doctrines.
GE:
Yes. I agree ...
... one exception though, John 19:39. Compare the TR and
the CT. (I'm talking of the 'chronological' Scriptures.)
I know what I am doing. And I can challenge anyone in the world today on every smallest as well as biggest 'point at issue'.
J317:
Prohi occurs 10 times in the New Testament, and all ten times it
is translated "morning" or "early morning."
GE:
Yes, of course, predominantly like in any language ‘early’ is ‘the morning’. But not exclusively the forenoon or before sunset ‘early’. It can be “very early in the morning before sunrise”, ‘lian prohï anateilantos hehliou”, Mark 16:2; or it can be “deepest of night morning” just after midnight, “orthrou batheohs”, Luke 24:1;
J317:
Luke 24: 1 uses prohi to refer to "early dawn" or "very early
in the morning." There's no evidence that it refers to just after midnight.
The women didn't come to the tomb just after midnight. The women bought spices after the end of the Sabbath, when the sun set that day. They left home to go to the tomb when it was still dark, and when they arrived at the tomb, it was still early dawn on the first day.
This is in accordance with Mark 16: 11; John 20: 11; Matt 28: 1 and Mark 16: 2.
GE:
‘Prohï’ can be when a gardener would begin his day’s work, sunrise or just after sunrise, “early”, John 20:11-17 = Mark 16:9; or it can be even after sunrise ‘early’, like when Jesus must have appeared to the OTHER women AFTER her;
J317:
Yes, in all those examples, prohi refers to early morning; NOT twilight, late evening.
GE:
‘Prohï’ can or may be early before noon in the mid-forenoon, epaurion, early when today the sky is red and lowring”, Matthew 16: 3
J317:
Verse 2 refers to "evening" [or late afternoon] [Gk opsia] whereas verse 3 refers to "morning" [Gk prohi] (See NASB, ESV, Rotherham, NIV, KJV, Robert Young's Literal, etc.)
GE:
‘Prohï’ can or may be early afternoon, ‘deileh prohïa’;
J317:
Please quote the verse where you find this and give the
reference.
GE:
‘Prohï’ can or may be early in the rainy season, James 5:7;
J317:
This "early" is a translation of a different word, the adjective proimos.
The main point is that prohi never refers to the late evening or twilight.
GE:
‘Prohï’ can or may be early time of the fruit-season, ‘prohïa karpimoh.
J317:
Could you please quote the verse and give the reference?
In any case, this is no evidence that prohia refers to late evening
or twilight.
GE:
‘Prohï’ can or may be even get a late, early rain Hosea 6:4b.
J317:
Again, the word here is the adjective proimos, not the adverb prohi. All of this evidence merely supports the conclusion that prohi NEVER refers to the twilight but always to the early morning.
It says "being dark still,"
GE:
Beg your pardon, it does NOT say, "being dark still";
it says, "being EARLY of-dark / darkness still", 'PROHÏ Skotias eti
ousehs’ ---which precisely was when Mary came to the tomb.
J317:
Yes, Mary Magdalene did come to the tomb while it was still dark, but it was in the early morning shortly before sunrise, NOT at twilight.
This is according to both the NT and the writings of Ellen G. White.
I can see why it's important for you to claim Mary came to the tomb
"early of dark," or at twilight-- because it would mean for you that
Jesus' resurrection occurred on the Sabbath. However, no matter how you slice
it, there's no valid biblcial evidence for a Sabbath resurrection.
GE:
Or ‘prohï’ may be ‘early before noon’ “in the mid-forenoon”,
‘epaurion’, “early when today the sky is red and lowring”, Matthew 16:3; or ‘early afternoon’, ‘deileh prohïa’; or it can be ‘early in the rainy season’, James 5:7; or ‘early time of the fruit-season’, ‘prohïa karpimohn’. You even get a “late, early rain” Hosea 6:4b.
More important in John 20:1 than the number of incidences of ‘prohï’ elsewhere, are context, common sense and chronology.
J317:
prohi (early morning) can't modify both the verb, erchetai, and the noun, skotias.
GE:
Just above you have argued about >>the adjective / adverb prohi<<. Now you argue >>prohi (early morning) can't
modify both the verb, erchetai, and the noun, skotias<<.
J317:
It doesn't say "being early still." It says "being dark still," i.e., Mary came to the tomb early in the morning while it was still dark.
GE:
I am very sorry, but it isn't true.
J317:
It doesn't say "being early still”.
GE:
Correct; it does not say "being early still"; it says, "being
early of-DARK / DARKNESS still", 'prohï SKOTIAS eti ousehs’.
J317:
It says "being dark still,"
GE:
It does NOT say, "being dark still".
It says, "being EARLY of-dark / darkness still", 'PROHÏ Skotias eti ousehs’ ---which precisely was when Mary came to the tomb.
‘Prohï’ not only functions as an Adverb; it also functions as an Adjective like here in John 20:1 where like a Substantive it qualifies and describes the Noun in immediate context and sequence, ‘(to) prohï (tehs) skotias’, “(the) Early of (the) Darkness’.
‘Prohï’, “(the) Early” in John20:1 functions as an Adjectival Substantive the equivalent of ‘(heh) prohïas’, “(the) early-of-night” / “(the) early-of-dark”. ‘Prohï’ is general— any time period has its ‘Early’, or early part. ‘Prohïas’ is specific— it denotes the “Early-of-night” only. Both ‘Prohï’ and ‘Prohïas’ are Substantives or Nouns; the only difference is their orthography or construction; ‘Prohï’ functions without a Suffix (analytically) and ‘Prohïas’ functions by Inflection through its added Suffix.
It is the very same thing happening with “(the) dark”, ‘(heh) skotias’ from “(the) dark(ness)”, ‘(to) skotos’. ‘Skotos’ is any darkness; ‘Skotias’ is ‘the darkness’ e.g. of the night of the plague.
It is the very same thing grammatically happening in Luke 24:1 with ‘orthrou batheohs / batheos’ < ‘(ho) Orthros’, ‘(tou) Orthrou’, “of (the) Early”; ‘(tou) Batheohs’ < ‘(to) Bathos ‘, “(the) Depth”. ‘Orthrou’, “Early” is specific of the night its morning; ‘Bathews’, “Depth” is general— it can be the Deep / Depth of hell.
J317:
Prohi always means "early morning," NEVER early night or early dark or dusk.
GE:
John, it's like Samie's "week" that is never from 'sabbaton'.
If it were a snake, a black mamba, you would have been dead by now, so recklessly holding the thing in your hands! John 20:1 is once and although once is not always, it never is never.
Re: J317,
There's not a single translation in any langauge that says Mary came to the tomb while it was "still early darkness," i.e., dusk. The reason no Bibles say it is that it's an invalid, impossible, unreasonable translation.
GE:
Marshall:
"Now on the first day of the week Mary the Magdalene comes early darkness yet being to the tomb" 'The Interlinear Greek - English New Testament' Samuel Baxter and Sons Limited London 1958 ... not even TRIED to find it ... sat with it right next
to me.
J317:
The reason no Bibles say it is that it's an invalid, impossible, unreasonable translation.
GE:
“Invalid”?
No! everything so far said, testifies to its validity.
“Impossible”?
If the easiest, that is, straight forward LITERAL translation is “impossible”, then yes, its “impossible”.
“Unreasonable”?
I can start now with three hundred million contradictions and stuff of the ‘unreasonableness’ of the Sunday morning early version ---in fact have pointed out about five or six already.
John317 hasn’t answered to one so far.
So why should I spoon-feed him more?
J317:
Please read the English translation. What does it say? Please quote it here.
GE:
I did, you just quoted my quote for your reply!
I QUOTED for you Marshall’s _English_ translation and I gave you the source you could very well have yourself, the Nestle Interlinear with Marshall’s translation …
J317:
Yes, "....Mary comes early, it being yet dark, to the tomb."
GE:
No; "Mary comes to the tomb on the First Day of the week, being early-of-dark still ..."
'Prohï' is Adjectival because of the Noun's Possessive Case ---the 'early' part or and quality of the dark is that "OF the dark" ... and - NOT DENIED - but secondary, 'prohï' is ALSO Adverbial, telling Mary comes early to the tomb, "it being yet EARLY dark."
Use your quotation marks as though you are quoting God's Word ---with respect; which you are NOT doing, dear John317, but are doing with cunning!
J317:
It doesn't say, "Mary came to the tomb, it being still early darkness."
GE:
O not?!
Marshall thinks so, “Mary comes early darkness yet (still) being”.
And so did John: “Maria erchetai prohï Skotias eti ousehs.”
‘ousehs’, “BEING” – ADJECTIVAL Participle – “being” WHAT?
“Being early dark still”.
Silly is it to want to say, “Mary being early dark still comes …” if ‘Mary being’. But perfect sense is it to say, “Mary – being early dark still – comes …” if “dark being early”.
This is becoming tedious.
I must admit, you do succeed in testing my patience; but God help me you won’t succeed in letting me fail my patience or the simplicity of my faith.
I haven’t come to ClubAdventist forums to receive acclaim. If I not instead received sarcasm and ridicule I would have known my mission failed.
J317:
As I said before, "early" [prohi] is a reference to early morning, not to late evening or dusk.
GE:
Yes, ‘early’ per se. As I before referred to Bauer (also Blass Debrunner), if ‘early’ is used as a Noun, for example. In German it would be with a capital letter, “Early”, ‘die Frühe’. Then “Early” is a synonym for ‘Morning’ / ‘the morning’ ---Matthew 16:3 John 18:28.
But that does not make right what is wrong.
By the way, I never said ‘prohï’ stands for “late evening”. “Late evening” no longer is ‘dusk’; “late evening” is not, to quote myself or Englishmen like Marshall, “(while) being early dark still / yet”.
So, “Would [I] agree that in those verses, ---Matthew 16:3 John 18:28 prohi refers to the morning and not to early darkness?”
Why would I not agree?!
J317:
The Greek word order doesn't matter. It isn't like English. In Greek, the words can be in almost any order, and it wouldn't matter. What matters in Greek is the change in the prefix and the suffix of the words, because they determine the relationship among the words.
GE:
I missed one important aspect in our last discussion on John 20:1 and the time of day Mary went to the tomb the first time.
It was the factor – the functional factor – of Greek PHRASES or and CLAUSES.
You and I stared ourselves blind at the individual words that make up the Time-Phrase, ‘prohï skotias eti ousehs’ while we neglected to take cognizance of the phrase in its – and as – its
whole.
FUNCTIONALLY the phrase acts Adverbial Phrase-of-TIME with regard to the Verbs of the Sentence, “comes”, “sees”, “runs”. “Mary comes … sees … runs WHEN (literally) early-of-dark still being”.
WITHIN the phrase, the subordinate phrase, “being early-of-dark” functions as Substantive Adjectival phrase, “early” being applicable to “(the) dark” … “(the) early dark”.
First thing Dana and Manty discuss about clauses and phrases is their “Structural Relation” … which means the implicit importance of their analytical word-order.
We have before us one of the best examples in traditional exposition of an “elusive thought” that got misplaced and therefore misinterpreted, the thought “being early dark (dusk) still” transformed into ‘being early morning still’.
“The clause [clausal phrase GE] is a unique element of syntactical structure and cannot be adequately comprehended until all its phenomena are presented in a single systematic view.”
“A clause [or clausal phrase GE] is simply the employment of a circumlocution by which we convey a meaning that we cannot readily express with a single word …”
“A clause [or clausal phrase GE] may sustain the relation of a SUBSTANTIVE and be used as subject or object of a verb [or Verbal Participle GE].
“A clause [or subordinate clausal phrase GE] may have the function of an ADJECTIVE, and be used to modify a NOUN.”
Now haven’t I done these things with my parsing throughout our conversation EXCEPT for having properly taken note of the subordinate phrase in its full structural functionality … which we here and now do address?
I remember that John317 attempted to ascribe exclusive Adverbial functionality to the word ‘prohï’, “early”, isolated by itself as functioned it not within a phrase or clausal phrase; and neither he nor I gave account of its WHOLE as “unique element of syntactical structure”.
Mark 16:1,
“When the Sabbath had passed” the fourth day had had begun.
John 20:1.
“While early darkness still on the First Day of the week Mary comes to the tomb.” “Thursday Evening” and “Friday Morning” were the SECOND day and not “the first day” of “the three days”;
… and
“Friday Evening” and “Saturday Morning” were “THE third day” and not “the second day” of the “three days”;
…and
“Saturday Evening” was “after the Sabbath”, “on the First Day of the week while early dark still”.
So that Wednesday “evening” and “night”, “Jesus had His baptism of
fire (blood) in the Garden of Gethsemane, and this (began) the 3 days and
nights sign of Jonah.”
1971 NAV
die môre [added]
vroeg [‘prohï’]
terwyl dit nog … was [‘eti ousehs’] …
donker [changed from Noun Genitive ‘skotias’ to non-existent Adverb]<<
Two falsifications by ‘adding’ and by ‘changing’.
1963 Louis Segond >>dès [added] le matin [added] comme il faisait encore [‘eti ousehs’] … obscure [changed from Noun Genitive ‘skotias’ to non-existent Adverb]<<
Three falsifications by ‘adding’ and by ‘changing’.
Luther 1914
da es noch … war [‘eti ousehs’] …
finster [changed from Noun Genitive ‘skotias’ to non-existent
Adverb omitting Adjective ‘prohï’]
Three falsifications by ‘omitting’, ‘adding’ and ‘changing’.
NKJV “early [Noun Genitive ‘skotias’],
while it was still [‘eti ousehs’] …
dark [added non-existent Adverb]”
With ONE falsification succeeding in the same falsifications that needed more ‘additions’, ‘changes’ and or ‘ommission’!
MASTERLY!
The English’ centuries of practice, superior scholarship and more ‘translations’ than in any other language, delivered much desired undesirable results!
But the Afrikaans
ANTV 1979 and BA 1986 sixth edition, second print, proudly,
beats the English in mischievous dealings in the interest of Sunday-sacredness in and with the Word of … who cares … God!
>>Die Sondagmôre [“on-the-Day” corrupted into ‘in-the->>morning’] vroeg [non-existent fraudulent adverbial innovation]
>>toe dit nog … was [‘eti ousehs’] …
>>donker [doubled non-existent fraudulent adverbial innovation to replace the Noun ‘skotias’]
John317, I have here lying around me on my desk and scattered on the floor of my study, several more ‘translations’ I have not looked at. For what would I? They will be the same.
Why?
That is what is really important here!
Why?!
Because they without exception want the text to “harmonise with the Synoptics”.
And why must John “harmonise with the Synoptics” in this place?
Because Jesus rose only once, and the women came to the
tomb only once, and they all – also “Jesus Himself, so sanctified the First Day of the week as the Christians’ Sabbath”.
… and John317 of clubadventist ---is he for, or against them?
This familiar claim, John 317, I am SURE you must have read in Sundaydarians’ literature, not only a few times, >>He rested on the first Sabbath after finishing His creation of a perfect world.<<
But whereas John317 meant the Seventh Day Sabbath, they – the Sunday-worshippers – would have meant Sunday.
Is John317 for or against Sunday-worship??
J317:
You conclude that all the translators are either ignorant or are refusing to translate it correctly in order to deceive people.
GE:
You misrepresent my animadversions on purpose John 317.
I am the one who recognises the translators' SKILL!
SKILL in misinformation thanks to their very thorough understanding and knowledge of NT Greek!
In other words, I distrust the VERY CLEVER translators.
In other words, I accuse them of dishonesty.
I accuse them of dishonesty in their OWN interest and in the interest of SUNDAY-WORSHIP.
I will not – God help – compromise in the smallest or largest point of contention.
Now let me tell you, I do NOT consider the placing of comma's worthy to be reckoned even under the smallest of points of contention as far as the present issue is concerned. You miss the woods for the dead timber as you miss the smallest twig for the woods.
What underlies the FRAUD found universally in John 20:1,2, is no matter of translation; but of Sunday-sacredness.
But John317 will never admit it or he must contradict his church and its sacred writings.
THERE, John317, lies _your_ dilemma.
J317:
If you don't like people to "misrepresent" your position or your motives, then don't do it to others, Gerhard.
I only repeated what you told me-- that you believe the translators are dishonest and that they purposely mistranslate the Bible.
GE:
You also said that I said that they are "ignorant", which I NEVER said or would say! On the contrary, I would allow the translators no excuse or mitigation 'ignorance' would have given them.
J317:
You talk about reading the Greek and reading Marshall's Greek-English interlinear, yet your posts show that you don't even understand what you're reading.
You would be better off taking classes in the language you want to understand, before claiming to translate the Bible more accurately than thousands of translators who have studied and taught Greek and NT theology for many, many years.
GE:
“For many, many years" never, never having faced the issues OF TODAY and never, never having been PROMPTED by enquiring MIND and always, always been indoctrinated and brain-washed by traditionalists and pedantic authoritarian instructors and dictators more blunt and dumb than they themselves. Like the Seventh-day Adventist church, I do not share the bright picture John317 sketches of Christian leadership, education and religion in the past AND ESPECIALLY IN THE PRESENT!
To flatter undeserving quasi learned men for their courageous pretence under the convenient protection of their numbers and status, is not going to decide for me, the right or wrong of any translation or, text.
Again I shall call on God my only Help and Witness ... through HIS WORD THE SCRIPTURES. You may deride me, John317. Do it! For me it is like receiving a nod of approval from Jesus.
If you had not opposed me, I would have been disappointed and discontented with myself.
J317:
… It seems to me you are making a lot of judgmental statements about people you don't even know.
But if you are right about all those translators of the Bible-- most of whom are teachers of translation in the top universities-- why should anyone trust what you are doing and saying, since you demonstrate that you know far less about translation than the men and women who've devoted their lives to helping to spread the gospel through translations of God's inspired word?
GE:
This is a good post of yours, John317.
Let me answer,
First, you, John 317, are making a lot of uncritical, flattering and unjustifiable statements about people you don't even know ---or perhaps know better than you pretend.
Next, you are now – as you have done times before – making one specific judgmental statement about me, as made I my ‘judgmental statements’ about the persons of those ‘people’, and, more importantly, as made I my ‘judgmental statements’ about their work, across board.
Which, both, are not justifiable accusations, dear John317.
Their salvation is none of my concern; their human fallibility is my concern, since it affects their work of translation.
Even then, not all their work, but specifically these ‘people’s’ work of translation of the Scriptures which regard the Christian
DAY of Worship, is my SOLE concern.
Have you heard or read one word from me about anything
else than the INVOLVED Scriptures and passages from the Gospels that have to do with the times and days and seasons of Jesus’ last passover?
Whenever I say something beyond these Scriptures, I try to say it by way of Confession of Faith ---Protestant Christian Faith. I restrict myself as good as I can to those Scriptures I have studied in the Text, in Context, in precedent, and in history and etymology.
I am not so foolish as to poke my nose in other people’s business or specialities. For that I enjoy the benefits of all the great men of God since the Apostles and Reformers of whom I am most ardent student and follower.
Mark my words, if there is one man living who RESPECTS AND ADMIRES great and mighty in the Lord God men, it’s me, Gerhard Ebersöhn.
We all know those men all. But how many so called translators have you known, John317? They ‘work’ in the dark holes of the papacy, ever since the age of increased knowledge, from about the beginning of the twentieth century. Because they have the power over the minds of men exactly through the Word of God the WRITTEN, PUBLISHED, SPONSORED AND SPREAD, ‘new’ and yet more ‘new’, ‘TRANSLATIONS’ of the Bible.
And _you_, John317, know it.
Pkrause:
This is how I see it:
John 20:1 Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Miryam from Magdala went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the tomb.
GE:
Thank you, PKrause that you _say_, "This is how I see it" and not, 'This is how it is'.
Now if it were the way you see it, it would have read something more or less exactly like in Mark 16:9 where it is unambiguously written, “Early on the First Day He appeared”, ‘prohï [early] prohtehi [on the First (Day)] sabbatou [of the week] ephaneh [appeared]”.
In other words, in John 20:1 it would have been ‘prohï de tehi miai tohn sabbatohn erchetai Maria’, ‘early on the First Day of the week comes Mary’.
Or like in Mark 16:2, ‘kai lian prohï [and very early] tehi miai tohn sabbatohn [on the First Day of the week] erchontai [they come]’.
AND of course, WERE it the same, ALSO the events and persons, would have to be the SAME ---but they ARE NOT!
Your mistake as everybody else’s who ‘translate’ like you proposed, is SIMPLE:
The Predicative Adjectival clausal Phrase ‘prohï-skotias-eti-ousehs’, “(the)-early-of-dark-still being” –
which CAN only function in WHOLE –
functions Adverbially and modifies the Verbs in John 20:1,2,
telling when Maria “sees” etcetera.
But this ONLY correct alternative, is
determinedly DESTROYED by being torn apart and the unwanted
essentials of literal syntactical wholeness and soundness,
simply being DISCARDED with.
Cabalo:
Folks, the MAIN point is that He is no longer in the tomb!!! BTW, if He arose on Sat a.m., it seems odd to me that He would wait until Sunday to make the fact known.
GE:
The "MAIN point" in this dicussion is NOT, "that He is no longer in the tomb!!!" Everybody here BELIEVED that since they are Christians and is NO 'issue' whatsoever for them.
Neither is it any 'point', here, "if He arose on Sat a.m." or not; or, if "it seems odd" to you whatever.
You are off topic and off the track and off the posts like Morne was the past rugby season with his boot … and it cost us the Super Fifteen and The Championship … and him his popularity.
Vertaling van Johannes 20:1,2 … en sommer van Lukas 24:1,2 …
‘Riglyn Werkwyse 1’
KABA ‘Vertaling’ nie ontvang nie. Daarom ‘lewer die leser’ die uwe, Gerhard Ebersöhn a.d.h.v. die AB 1933 en NV 1986, ‘kommentaar op ‘gedeelte’
“terwyl dit nog donker was“ / “die Sondagmôre vroeg, toe dit nog donker was”
“terwyl dit nog donker was“ is korrek vir so ver dit die ‘Bron’ weergee. Maar dit gee nie die ‘Bron’, ‘_prooï_ skotias êti oesees’, volledig weer nie. Volledig, sou die ‘Bron’ korrek weergegee gewees het met “terwyl (dit) nog _vroeg_ donker is“ / “synde nog _vroeg_ donker”.
“die Sondagmôre vroeg, toe dit nog donker was” is gladnie “getrou aan die Bron” nie.
“terwyl dit nog _vroeg_ donker was“, is “_vroeg_ donker”, d.w.s., ‘skemer’ vóór heeltemal “nag” / “donker”, o.t.w., “Saterdagaand”
Die ‘gedeelte’, ‘prooï skotias êti oesees’, “terwyl (dit) nog vroeg donker is”, ontleed, is ’n Predikatiewe Byvoeglike Naamwoord,
IN GEHEEL Ondergeskikte Bywoordelike Frase van Tyd, van toepassing op die Werkwoorde van Hoofsin “kom”, “sien”, “hardloop”
‘skotias’ SNW Onderwerp van Ondergeskikte Bywoordelike Frase van Tyd
‘oesees’ Deelwoordelike Werkwoord van Ondergeskikte Bywoordelike Frase van Tyd
‘êti’, “nog” BW v.t.o. ‘oesees’, “synde”
‘prooï’ Byvoeglike Naamwoord vir SNW ‘skotias’, “(die) donker / nag”
Byvoeglike Naamwoord vir SNW
1) by wyse van Genitief Verbuiging, ‘skotias’, “_van_ donker / nag”
2) a.g.v. woordorde van / posisionele verhouding tussen BNW ‘prooï’ en SNW ‘skotias’
3) afleibaar uit kontekstuele logiese en kronologiese historiese opeenvolging van gebeurtenisse binne groter geheel van perikoop waarin Maria “op die Eerste Dag van die week … na die graf kom … synde nog vroeg-donker … die KLIP (vir die eerste keer) van die graf af weggerol, sien, en (terug) hardloop”, WAARNA sy Petrus en Johannes (én die ander vroue) gaan vertel, en Petrus en Johannes na die graf gaan kyk en weer “huistoe keer”. Dit alles verloop VOORDAT “die vroue met hulle speserye voorberei en gereed” om die liggaam te salf, volgens Lukas 24:1,2, “DIEP NAG (‘orthroe batheoos’) na die graf gaan en die klip waarneem (soos Maria voor die tyd aan hulle moes verduidelik het) en (vir die eerste keer) in die graf ingaan MAAR, die liggaam nie daar kry nie!”
Johannes 20:1 vertel van die ontdekking dat die graf oopgemaak was – deur Maria op haar eie;
Lukas 24:1,2 vertel van die ontdekking dat die graf ‘ontruim’ was – deur “Maria en ander saam met haar” Lukas 24:10.
Nóg Johannes 20:1,2, nóg Lukas 24:1,2 vertel van dieselfde persone, van dieselfde omstandigheid, van dieselfde tyd van die nag, van dieselfde gebeurtenis … van die Opstanding.
Vertaling MAG NIE die gedeeltes wil sinkroniseer en identifiseer NIE. Dit sal nie “getrou aan die Bron” wees nie, maar ONTROU.
“Darkness from the sixth hour”
John 20:1, standard translations questioned
John 20:1,
Τῇ δὲ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων Μαρία ἡ Μαγδαληνὴ ἔρχεται πρωῒ σκοτίας ἔτι οὔσης εἰς τὸ μνημεῖον,
‘Tehi de mian tohn sabbatohn Maria heh Magdalehneh erchetai PROHÏ SKOTIAS ETI OUSEHS’,
Years ago I came across this text in Jeremiah, 15:9. I forgot about it, and just the other day while sorting out old papers, found it among them.
Quote
<epedu ho hehlios autehi eti mesousehs tehs hehmeras>QE
<Her sun is gone down while it is yet noon>
'epedu' - 'had gone under'
'ho hehlios autehi' - 'her sun'
'eti' - 'still' / 'while' / ‘yet’
'mesousehs' - 'being ['ousehs'] middle ['mes(os)']
'tehs hehmeras' - 'of the day' ...
… “WHILE BEING noon” exactly like WHILE BEING noon / “middle of the day”, it was or became darkness from the sixth hour [noon] until the ninth hour [mid-afternoon] on the day that Jesus died.
Now, compare the meaning of “while being still”- ἔτι οὔσης ‘eti ousehs’, “noon / midday”, ‘mesos’< ‘meso(s o)usehs’ in Jeremiah, 15:9, to “while being still”- ἔτι οὔσης ‘eti ousehs’, “early darkness”- πρωῒ σκοτίας ‘prohï skotias’, in John 20:1, <Τῇ δὲ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων Μαρία ἡ Μαγδαληνὴ ἔρχεται πρωῒ σκοτίας ἔτι οὔσης εἰς τὸ μνημεῖον,>
“The First Day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene WHILE IT WAS / WHILE BEING EARLY DARKNESS STILL…”
…or is it, “cometh Mary Magdalene early [MORNING] when yet dark”?
“While being still ...” WHAT? is the question here,
Either, “While being still EARLY DARKNESS” as such—that is—“While being still early darkness that is evening after sunset that is DUSK”?
Or, “While being still early darkness” not as such, but that is early morning that is DAWN?
“Darkness” is no Adverb, ‘dark’, ‘skoteinos’;
“Darkness”, ‘skotias’, is a Noun Genitive from ‘heh skotia’, ‘the evening’ – “darkness-OF-evening” which is ‘dusk after sunset’ 15 times in the NT—NOT ‘darkness-of-morning’ which is ‘dawn’, ‘diaugadzoh’.
“Early” is an Adverb, ‘prohï’; and it tells that it “was EARLY-of-evening still”. It was not ‘while the morning still dark starting to get light’. “Early” on its own is no Noun therefore; only in conjunction with “darkness”, “being early-darkness still” does “early” form an Adjectival Substantive, “[the] early-darkness”.
From these indisputable grammatical and syntactical facts it must therefore be deduced that “Mary Magdalene comes to the grave on the First Day BEING EARLY EVENING STILL” which would be ‘Saturday evening’ some time after sunset but before proper darkness of night.
This conclusion also is perfectly logical and consequential with all following events during that ‘Saturday night’ which in Bible terms was “the First Day of the week” its FIRST part, the “EVENING” of its still prospective night “WHILE BEING EARLY EVENING STILL”.
John 20v1 “early darkness”
by
Gerhard Ebersöhn
http://www.biblestudents.co.za
biblestudents@imaginet.co.za
2 / 7 November 2012
Addendum
John 20:1,2 Vooks
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=99409
Anon:
What is wrong with the belief that Christ rose from the dead on Sunday?
GE:
There is nothing right with it. Everything -- and that means millions -- of things about this belief is wrong.
For one reason : That it is not "according to the Scriptures".
But fix ONE un-Scriptural detail of the 'Sunday resurrection' myth, and it DISPROVES ITSELF, WHILST proving the truth, namely, that Jesus rose from the dead "ON THE SABBATH BEFORE the First Day of the week".
Take into account the FACT, Jesus was crucified and DIED on the day BEFORE the day on which He was BURIED and was SUPPOSED TO BE BURIED ON "according to the Scriptures".
In other words, Jesus did not DIE, AND, RISE on the SAME day but respectively on consecutive days.
It spells the END OF SUNDAY SACREDNESS, just the simple actuality -- 'ipso facto'!
Vooks:
You are one insincere man. If Sunday was the Third, Saturday the Second and Friday the First, there is NO room for Day zero.
Look at the creation account. The first day of creation is .....the first day
In Joshua 6, read verse 14. The SECOND day was the.....second day of encompassing Jericho which means the first day was the day before. You don't have a day zero
Perfect example is Exodus
Exodus 19:10-11 (ASV)
10 And Jehovah said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to-day and to-morrow, and let them wash their garments, 11 and be ready against the third day; for the third day Jehovah will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai
So 'to-day' is the FIRST day of sanctification, 'to-morrow' is the SECOND day, and the day after tomorrow is the THIRD day.
If Sunday was the third day, Saturday was the second and Friday was the day of crucifixion
GE:
Now please, tell me, WHAT IS THIS: <<<If Sunday was the Third, Saturday the Second and Friday the First, there is NO room for Day zero.>>>
Your moment of brilliance?! Your eternity of sincerity?!
Sunday was not the Third Day or "the third day".
Come, I'll bet my boots it isn't and never was. Frankly I don't know where you got the idea from.
Vooks:
PS: Sunday resurrection don't make it sacred, just a memorial. Why it guts Sabbatarians is beyond me
GE:
Sunday was not Resurrection. Don't make it sacred on own authority. You don't have authority to make Sunday Resurrection Day; and you don't have authority to make Sunday sacred for whatever reason you might see fit. You definitely have no authority to make Sunday <<just a memorial>>. Least a memorial of Jesus' Resurrection from the dead "ON THE SABBATH", Jesus' Resurrection having been God's Rest for which reason the Seventh Day was "the Sabbath of the LORD" -- i.e., God's Day-of-Rest in the Son.
Why it guts Sundaydarians like it does Sabbatarians, is not beyond me. I fully understand why. Because it exposes their fallacy the one's like the other's.
It is clear as the sky above over the Karoo at midday people sincerely concerned and honestly attempting to find solution for the "third day ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES", is their lack of knowledge of the "Passover of Yahweh" : "THREE DAYS THICK DARKNESS” so that the "three days" of God's salvation of his People out of “the Land-of-Darkness" : Egypt : ‘geh’ : “HELL”, were INDISTINGUISHABLE : ONE— by the Omnipotence of the Redeemer of his people.
For which absolute and only reason, the exodus passover had ONE DATE, "the fourteenth day of the First Month, which encompassed "THREE DAYS THICK DARKNESS", the fourteenth day, the fifteenth day, and the sixteenth day of the First Month : IN LATER, INSTITUTIONAL Scriptures.
The exodus had ONE meal: the eating of "the flesh with unleavened bread NO GARNISH"— "the remains" of which "THE NEXT DAY", Israel had to "burn with fire" as type of the interment of Our Passover and Lamb of God, Jesus Christ.
Vooks:
Jesus was crucified on Friday, resurrected on a Sunday. It is so clear, has always been since his resurrection. History is very harsh on revisionists and their phony theories
GE:
Jesus was crucified on : Scripture : New Testament: “the first day they KILLED the passover” Mark 14:12 et al; Old Testament: “the fourteenth day of the First Month” Leviticus 23:5 et al.
Jesus was buried on : Scripture : New Testament: “the Preparation” Mark 15:42, “great-day-sabbath” John 19:31,38,39, “since evening having had started” Matthew 27:57 Luke 23:50 until “the Preparation mid-afternoon the Sabbath nearing” Luke 23:54 John 19:42; Old Testament: “the fifteenth day of the First Month” Leviticus 23:6 et al.
It is so clear, has always been so clear, since his Crucifixion, Burial and Resurrection “the third day according to the SCRIPTURES” 1Corinthians 15:3,4.
History is very harsh on the never revised, phony theory of anti-Christ, that He <<resurrected on a Sunday>>.
Vooks:
Sunday was the THIRD day since they crucified him. He said he would resurrect the third day
GE:
The whole Bible except the book of Exodus allows for only one method of reckoning days, and that is, from sunset to sunset.
Sunset could be supposed, so that 'dusk' or the "early-dark" or "evening" after sunset is taken for the beginning of the day-cycle.
Exodus reckons days sunrise to sunrise. Because the country was pagan --- they worshipped the upcoming SUN.
Vooks:
Lying through your teeth
RevMitchell:
He may be wrong but it is not necessary that he is lying.
Darrell:
I think we have to go with the Northern reckoning, seeing that the Lord celebrated Passover Thursday evening, which would have been viewed as Friday.
GE:
Last Week / ‘Holy Week’
Sabbath
"Six days before passover Feast Days" John 12:1 (… begin on Friday)
(Palm Sunday)
Five days before "Feast Days" John 12:12 (… begin on Friday)
(Monday)
Four days before "Feast Days" (… begin on Friday)
Mark 11:12 Matthew 21:18 Mark 11:15 Luke 19:45-48 Mark 11:19
(Tuesday)
THREE days before "Feast Days" (… begin on Friday)
Mark 11:20,21,27 Matthew 22:23 Luke 20:1-8 Mark 13:1,3
= Matthew 26:2 "after TWO days (Wednesday Thursday) is Passover
= “Son of Man CRUCIFIED" (… on Thursday)
(Wednesday)
TWO days before "Feast Days" (… begin on Friday)
Luke 21:38 Matthew 26:3
= Mark 14:1-3 "after TWO days (Thursday Friday) is Feast
= “Days of UNLEAVENED Bread" (… begin on Friday)
(Thursday—Wednesday night and Thursday day, the Fifth Day)
One day before "Feast Days" (… begin on Friday)
= “BEFORE the Feast” John 13:1
= “PREPARATION of the Passover” John 19:14
= “NOT ON, the Feast” Mark 14:2
= “WHEN they KILLED the passover…
= “WHEN they REMOVED leaven”
= Mark 14:12 Matthew 26:17 Luke 22:7 Exodus 12:15a
= Abib 14 (Thursday Abib 14)
(Friday)
“The Feast of Unleavened Bread” Exodus 12:15b (… began on Friday)
= “The Preparation …
= “… which is the Foresabbath …
= “… for THAT DAY WAS great day sabbath” of passover.
1A) HERE BEGINS the NIGHT and the FIRST of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
wherein Jesus ENTERED IN in “the Kingdom of my Father” (Jesus’ Jonah’s descent to hell) :–
Mk14:12/17; Mt26:17/20; Lk22:7/14; Jn13:1.
1B) HERE BEGINS the MORNING of the FIRST of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
in which Jesus was delivered and crucified :–
Mk15:1/Mt27:1/Lk23:1/Jn19:14
1C) HERE is the LATE NOON AND MID–AFTERNOON of the FIRST of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
when Jesus DIED and was deserted by all :–
Mk15:37–41; Mk27:50–56; Lk23:44–49; Jn19:28–30
2A) HERE BEGINS the SECOND of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
the day whereon Joseph WOULD BURY the body of Jesus :–
Mk15:42/Mt27:57, Lk23:50–51, Jn19:31/38.
“The Feast of Unleavened Bread” Exodus 12:15b
= “The Preparation …
= “… which is the Fore-Sabbath …
= “… for THAT DAY WAS great day sabbath” of
passover.
= FRIDAY!
= Abib 15, Thursday night and Friday day = Sixth Day ....
2B) HERE is the NIGHT of the SECOND of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
wherein Joseph begged the body, and according to the law of the Jews – the passover’s law – undertook and prepared to bury Jesus:–
“the first night” unleavened bread was eaten John 19:39
Mk15:43–46a; Mt27:58–59; Lk23:52–53a; Jn19:31b–40
2C) HERE is the LATE NOON AND MID–AFTERNOON of the SECOND of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
when Joseph and Nicodemus had laid the body and had closed the tomb; and men and women left for home :–
Mk15:46b–47; Mk27:60–61; Lk23:53b–56a; JN19:41–42
I have no other answer than this.
Jesus "ate" and He "drank" SPIRITUALLY THROUGH SUFFERING; while He "gave" to his disciples, real, ordinary, LEAVENED , "bread" - 'arton'; and real, ordinary, FERMENTED 'wine' - 'the fruit of the vine'.
"At the First Night" of ULB eaten, <<Thursday evening>> AFTER they had "KILLED the Passover", Jesus was, the Passover and still hang on the cross : "KILLED".
Darrell:
Don't want disrupt the thread but did want to ask if you have considered how Jews held to two reckonings of when a day began. I think it was those of Galilee, for example, the day began at dusk, whereas those of Jerusalem's day began at dawn, which would explain how the Lord could celebrate the Passover Yet those who took Him had not.
Vooks:
thank you Darrell,
The two Passover meals are problematic for BOTH Sunday and Saturday resurrection positions. I have heard that the priests spread the Seder over days to accommodate the many animals to be slaughtered. This of all possible explanations make the most sense for me
Darrell:
I see the Lord celebrating Passover Thursday evening after the manner of those in Galilee, taken in the wee hours of Friday, and crucified on Friday, which for (I think it was southern) Jews who began the day at dawn, they would have celebrated Passover that day.
It is said that this distinction also made it easier for the sacrificing of the many animals, and that the Brook Kedar would have run red with the blood of that slaughter.
But I haven't looked at this for a while and just running off a previous study. Need to check on the details.
I think your quotation of Leviticus 19 makes the figurative meaning clear, so thanks for that. Hadn't made that connection before, but definitely a magic bullet if there ever was one, lol.
Vooks:
More proof that the THIRD day is the day after tomorrow
Leviticus 7:16-17 (ASV)
16 But if the sacrifice of his oblation be a vow, or a freewill-offering, it shall be eaten on the day that he offereth his sacrifice; and on the morrow that which remaineth of it shall be eaten: 17 but that which remaineth of the flesh of the sacrifice on the third day shall be burnt with fire.
Luke 24:21 (ASV)
21 But we hoped that it was he who should redeem
Israel. Yea and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things came to pass.
Luke 24:45-46 (ASV)
45 Then opened he their mind, that they might understand the scriptures; 46 and he said unto them, Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer, and rise again from the dead the third day;
GE:
Sunday was not the Third Day or "the third day".
Come, I'll bet my boots it isn't and never was. Frankly I don't know where you got the idea from.
Vooks:
Luke 24:21King James Version (KJV)
21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
Can you guess what day is 'to-day' in this verse?
Luke 24:1King James Version (KJV)
GE:
Who could not?
Can you, SEE what day you SKIPPED to colour in?
Vooks:
24 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
Luke 24:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
'To-day'of v21 is 'that same day' of v13 which is the 'first day of the week' of verse 1
Sunday was the third day since 'these things'...what things other than the passion of our Lord they had been talking about climaxing in his death?
GE:
So? Useless information everyone already has.
Vooks:
Scriptures are not useless, your rants are.
Sunday was the THIRD day since he was crucified, Saturday was the SECOND, Friday was the FIRST, they day they did it
GE:
Yes! Again, ignore the word, "since".
My first job was primary school teacher. It lasted three months I think. Or did it?
Step by step ...
<<<Sunday was the THIRD day since he was crucified>>>
Full marks. 100%
<<<Saturday was the SECOND>>>
Half an answer. Deduct 50%
The correct answer was, <Saturday> 'was the second day SINCE'.
<<<Friday was the FIRST>>>
Half an answer. Deduct another 50%
The correct answer was, <Friday> 'was the first day SINCE' they crucified Him.
Therefore I fail you. You get nil % because : 'Thursday' was THE DAY THAT they crucified Him.
Cheers mate. Find out if administration will let you enrol for next year.
Vooks:
The FIRST day of ANYTHING in ANY culture is the very day something happens and not the day after. This is why the the THIRD day in the scriptures is the day after tomorrow
Please post any scriptural rebuttal to this. I have shared several affirming the same
GE:
If it had any bearing on any Scripture, I would have. No further comment.
Vooks:
This is a comment in and of itself
GE:
The last word is yours with pleasure. It's worthless anywhere in any case.
Vooks:
And you are still replying. You should be a professional comedian
Scriptures are not useless, your rants are.
Sunday was the THIRD day since he was crucified, Saturday was the SECOND, Friday was the FIRST, they day they did it
GE:
I said, pretending the word "since" does not exist in Luke 24:21 is proving only one thing, that you are a liar.
SO, HERE in this post of yours!
The truth though is - paying due respect to the word "since" :
<Sunday> was the third day "SINCE" He was crucified,
Saturday was the second day "SINCE" He was crucified,
Friday was the first day "SINCE" He was crucified,
...so that :
THURSDAY was the very day THAT <<they did it>>.
Alcott:
What is wrong with the belief that Christ rose from the dead on Sunday?
GE:
It is FALSE. And Sunday-sacredness is based on its FALSITY!
Darrell C
I see the Lord celebrating Passover Thursday evening after the manner of those in Galilee, taken in the wee hours of Friday, and crucified on Friday, which for (I think it was southern) Jews who began the day at dawn, they would have celebrated Passover that day.
It is said that this distinction also made it easier for the sacrificing of the many animals, and that the Brook Kedar would have run red with the blood of that slaughter.
But I haven't looked at this for a while and just running off a previous study. Need to check on the details.
I think your quotation of Leviticus 19 makes the figurative meaning clear, so thanks for that. Hadn't made that connection before, but definitely a magic bullet if there ever was one, lol.
GE:
Re: <<<the Lord celebrating Passover Thursday evening after the manner of those in Galilee,>>>
The Jews?, No! Because events at the death of Jesus and before, UPSET THEIR APPLE-CART.
At the time preparations should have been made for the sacrifices and while the time for the sacrifices, there was
impenetrable "DARKNESS OVER ALL THE LAND".
Vooks:
Darkness from noon to 1500H, 3 hours of disruption
GE:
Then occurred an earthquake so that the rocks rent and the graves opened and the veil rent BEFORE a lamb was slaughtered.
Else they would have eaten the passover on that <<Thursday>> night.
John mentions “at”, this very, “first night” of unleavened bread eaten “with the flesh” but never killed or roasted, so, never eaten. John 19:39.
Vooks:
Jesus rose again the THIRD day. Work backwards. Start with facts and then attempt to fit them into your prejudices
1 Corinthians 15:3-4 King James Version (KJV)
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
GE:
... backwards ... yea.
Xfrod:
Sunday is the first day of the week. He resurrected on the first day of the week. Therefore, Sunday is the day that Jesus rose from the dead.
Mt 28:1 ¶ In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. 2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. {was: or, had been}
3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. 6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.
GE:
It is of no avail to argue with one who cannot understand or read his own language.
Do you read ...In the end of the First Day, as it began to dawn toward the Second Day of the week...?
Or do you read "In the end OF-THE-SABBATH, as it began to dawn TOWARD the first day of the week"?
Sunday is the first day of the week. He resurrected "on the Sabbath Day". Therefore, Sunday is the day after Jesus rose from the dead.
Vooks
Sunday was the THIRD day since they crucified him. He said he would resurrect the third day
GE:
Luke 24:21 does not say <<<Sunday was the THIRD day since...>>>
Luke 24:21 says <Sunday> "...today is the third day SINCE they delivered Him to be crucified" and He indeed was crucified.
Sunday was not <<<the third day ... He said he would resurrect>>>. You desecrate God's Word.
Even the unbelieving Jews knew and affirmed in Matthew 27:62, "on the morning after ('Friday') The Preparation", it was "the third day (Jesus) said he would rise again ... and on Sabbath Day the angel of the Lord descended from heaven and cast the stone away" Matthew 28:1.
But confessing Christians won't!
If you say you do not see the word "since" in Luke 24:21, you are a liar.
Vooks
Sunday was the third day since 'these things'...what things other than the passion of our Lord they had been talking about climaxing in his death?
GE:
Your acting the clown is dismal.
Chowmah:
MATT.12 [39] But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:[40] For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; SO SHALL THE SON OF MAN BE THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH.
The above scripture says as Jonas was 3 days and 3 nights in the whales belly, and so shall Jesus be 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth. Does good Friday afternoon till (easter) Sunday morning equal 3 days and 3 nights? No it does not.
MARK 16 [1] And WHEN THE SABBATH WAS PAST, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
These women bought sweet spices AFTER the sabbath
was past.
LUKE 23 [56] And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; AND RESTED THE SABBATH DAY according to the commandment.
These same women prepared spices and then rested the sabbath day, according to the commandment (Gods 4th commandment) How could these women prepare spices and rest the sabbath if they didnt buy spices till after the sabbath had past? There had to be two sabbath days that week.
JOHN 19 [14] And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King![15] But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him.
JOHN 19[31] The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (FOR THAT SABBATH DAY WAS AN HIGH DAY,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
These 2 scriptures from John are proof that the first of these sabbaths was the high sabbath. There is a sabbath on the 1st day of the feast of unleavened bread which follows the passover
LEVITICUS 23 [5] In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover. [6] And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. [7] In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
After the passover, in the 1st day of unleavened bread, there is a high sabbath day. No one saw the Lord rise. When they discovered He had risen, it was Sunday (the 1st day of the week) but no one was present when He rose from the dead. If you believe the sign of Jonas and the scripture from Matt.12 you must believe He rose on a late sabbath afternoon 3 days and 3 nights after Jesus was placed in the heart of the earth. He was placed in tomb before sundown as at sundown began the sabbath as stated in John 19[31].
MARK 8 [31] And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and AFTER THREE DAYS rise again.
MARK 16 [1] And when the sabbath was past, MARY MAGDALENE, AND MARY THE MOTHER OF JAMES, AND SALOME, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
MARK 15 [40] There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was MARY MAGDALENE, AND MARY THE MOTHER OF JAMES THE LESS AND OF JOSES, AND SALOME;[41] (Who also, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto him and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem.[42] And now WHEN THE EVEN WAS COME, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,[43] Joseph of Arimathaea, and honourable counseller, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.[44] And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead.[45] And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph.[46] And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre.[47] AND MARY MAGDALENE AND MARY THE MOTHER OF JOSES BEHELD WHERE HE WAS LAID.
These 2 scriptures are proof that the women who bought the spices didnt run out and buy the spices after Christ was crucified. They were there when Christ was crucified and there when laid in his tomb. At sundown the sabbath began and the girls were there. After sundown (during the sabbath) they could not buy or sell so they had to wait till the sabbath had
passed. Just as scripture verifies in Mark 16.
MATT.27 [54] Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.[55] And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him:[56] AMONG WHICH WAS MARY MAGDALENE, AND MARY THE MOTHER OF JAMES AND JOSES, and the mother of Zebedee's children.[57] When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:[58] He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered.[59] And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,[60] And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.[61] And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre.[62] Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,[63] Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, AFTER THREE DAYS I WILL RISE AGAIN.
Yup, after 3 days. Just as Jesus said it would be. Just as the “sign of Jonah” points out.
JOHN 20 [1] The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when IT WAS YET DARK, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
GE:
Corrected:
JOHN 20 [1] The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early of dark yet [dusk / evening--'proh-i skotias eti ousehs'], unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
Chowmah:
Youve known all along that you cannot find a portion of a third night. In believing the above scripture you must now believe you cannot find a portion of a third day. When Mary Magdalene came to the place Jesus was buried it was still dark and He had already risen.
Just some added thoughts. The word easter found in Acts 12
Acts 12 [4] And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.
pascha, pas’-khah;of Chaldee origin [compare Hebrew 6453 (pecach)]; the Passover (the meal, the day, the festival or the special sacrifices connected with it) :- Easter, Passover.
Every other place that you will find this word in the bible it was translated Passover. Someone took libertys with the written word and according to the Word their gonna get the what for
LEVITICUS 23 [1]And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, [2] Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts. [3] Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings. [4] These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. [5] In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover. [6] And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. [7] IN THE FIRST DAY YE SHALL HAVE AN HOLY CONVOCATION: YE SHALL DO NO SERVILE WORK THEREIN. [8] But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
JOHN 19 [14] And it was THE PREPARATION OF THE PASSOVER, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King![15] But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him.
JOHN 19[31] The Jews therefore, BECAUSE IT WAS THE PREPARATION, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (FOR THAT SABBATH DAY WAS AN HIGH DAY,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
Keep in mind that jewish days begin at sundown. They still do to this day. You can see that the sabbath thats spoken of in John was a high sabbath day and not the weelky sabbath.
NUMBER ONE – Wednesday evening before sundown Jesus was placed in the tomb. Jesus was placed in the tomb just before the 1st day of the feast of unleavened bread which is a high sabbath day as explained in John 19 verse 31. The 1st day and night Jesus was in the tomb was the (high sabbath day).
GE:
Joseph started to undertake “TO bury” Jesus “that NIGHT” and finished to bury Jesus “next day” according to the Scriptures “mid-afternoon the (weekly) Sabbath approaching.”
The sacrifice was killed before <<sundown>> and was eaten after <<sundown>> and burned (returned to dust—buried) “the next day”.
Therefore Jesus was NOT <<placed in the tomb … before the 1st day of the feast>>.
<<<Keep in mind that jewish days begin at sundown.>>>
Jesus was placed in the tomb and Joseph had closed the grave “mid-afternoon the Sabbath (Seventh Day) nearing”, “on the sabbath because that day was great day sabbath of” the passover—THE VERY REASON WHY AND FOR Joseph to have done so having been the fact it was “on the sabbath because that day was great day sabbath of” the passover : the direct OPPOSITE of your theory according to which Joseph could not have buried Jesus “THAT DAY” COMMANDED BY GOD FOR THAT PURPOSE!
Chowmah:
NUMBER TWO – Thursday evening till friday evening. Night and day no.2. This day, AFTER the sabbath had passed (Mark 16 verse 1) the girls went shopping, returned home and prepared the spices.
MARK 16 [1] And WHEN THE SABBATH WAS PAST, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
LUKE 23 [56] And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; AND RESTED THE SABBATH DAY according to the commandment.
GE:
Mark 16:1 is about “when the Sabbath had gone through”, before “they (the 3 women) would go anoint Him … on the FIRST Day of the week” ---‘Saturday night’.
Vooks:
Sabbath starts in the evening, ends in the evening. Sabbath ends and shops open and the women buy spices. Early in the morning (orthros)- Luke24:1 they make their way to the tomb
GE:
Luke 23:54-56a is about “THAT DAY”—“great day sabbath of” the passover 15th day of the First Month—“the Preparation (“which is the Fore-Sabbath” [Sixth Day of the week]) the Sabbath … according to the (Fourth) Commandment … nearing.”
You identify these Scriptures. They do not tell of anything the same!
Chowmah:
NUMBER THREE- Day and night no.3 was, as the Word states in Luke 23, the weekly sabbath day according to the 4th commandment. It was after the WEEKLY sabbath day that they went to the tomb (on the 1st day of the week) and found that Jesus HAD risen. My guess is Jesus rose from the dead exactly 3 days and 3 nights, just as He said He would. He rose near the end of the weekly sabbath.
JOHN 20 [1] The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when IT WAS YET DARK, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
GE:
The First Day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early of dark still [dusk / evening—'prohï skotias eti ousehs'], unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre. John 20:1
Chowman:
For those who claim you only need parts of the 3 days to make the scriptures fit.....scipture above proves you cant even get parts of 3 days. Mary went to the tomb before the sun had risen, while it was yet dark and Jesus had already risen.
GE:
<<<in Luke 23, the weekly sabbath day according to the 4th commandment.>>>
Good! “They (the two Marys here mentioned) BEGAN to rest the Sabbath” Luke 23:56b.
<<<It was after the WEEKLY sabbath day that they went
to the tomb>>>
Good! It was “when the WEEKLY Sabbath Day had gone through” that the three women mentioned in Mark 16:1 and together with “others” in Luke 24:1, had gone to the tomb “ON THE FIRST Day of the week” : “the third SINCE they delivered Him over to be crucified” Luke 24:21. NOT THE DAY AFTER they crucified Jesus like you try to say!
Please, Chowman, look at this:
John 19:14, “And it was THE PREPARATION OF THE PASSOVER, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! 15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him.”
John 19:31, “The Jews therefore, BECAUSE IT WAS THE PREPARATION, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day ---for that day was great day of sabbath (of the passover) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
…and keep in mind Bible-days (especially NT Bible-days), <<begin at sundown>>
THAT IS WHY this:
John 19:14, “And it was THE PREPARATION OF THE PASSOVER, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! 15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him” … CAME AND HAD PASSED BEFORE the “EVENING” of the day which "HAD BEGUN since / because it ALREADY HAD BECOME EVENING The Preparation", Mark 15:42 Matthew 27:57 Luke 23:50 John 19:31 being parallel Scriptures.
John 19:14 DEFINES “The Preparation” which “was” in its middle in the morning 6 a.m., “It was The Preparation OF THE PASSOVER” the fourteenth day of the First Month which had had begun in John 13:1,30 Mark 14:14,17 Matthew 26:17,20 Luke 22:7,14 1Corinthians 11:23.
And John 19:31 DEFINES “The Preparation which “had had begun” and “was”, “since THAT DAY was Great Day Sabbath” the FEAST-Day sabbath of the passover, fifteenth day of the First Month..
"The Preparation of the Passover" FINISHED <<sundown>> BEFORE “evening”;
"The Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath” BEGAN AFTER <<sundown>> with “evening”.
Then “The Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath” (‘Friday’) began ENDING with the last three hours of the Sixth Day “due to the Jews’ preparations” for the Sabbath in John 19:42 from “mid-afternoon the Sabbath approaching” Luke 23:54.
John 20:1, “The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early of dark yet [dusk / evening--'proh-i skotias eti ousehs'], unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.”
Chowmah:
Hey GE, really cannot follow you. You say things then back it up with non scripture. You posted 3 posts and i could follow none. Maybe if youd back up what you say using the ole King James that would help
GE:
I very much would have liked to, had <<the ole King James>> been correct. But it unfortunately isn't correct, "it being-EARLY-OF-Dark yet" in the Greek, 'proh-i skotias eti ousehs',
and not
<when it was yet dark>
Sovereign:
I have no idea which day of the week He was resurrected. I am just thankful He did.
Chowmah:
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (KJV)
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Its important what ya believe SovereignGrace
RevMitchell:
Some things we believe are not as consequential as others. To make a blanket statement that it is important what we believe is true but misleading.
Sovereign:
Didn't the Jews use a different calendar than we do? Didn't they view the time of day in a somewhat different way than we? I ask this in all sincerity.
GE:
How can you NOT know on which day of the week Christ was Resurrected from the dead?
Don't you read the Scriptures which tell you "In the end(ing) of the Sabbath as it began to dawn towards the First Day of the week mid-afternoon on the Sabbath ... the angel of the Lord ... cast the stone from the grave"?
Vooks:
How nonsensical can it get?
Sunday starts on Saturday evening, ends in the evening. Let's look at all the trips to the grave
Luke 24:1 (KJV)
Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them
What is 'very early in the morning'? 'Early dawn'- barthus orthros
?????? (orthros)
Strong: G3722
GK: G3986
the dawn; the morning, Jn. 8:2; Acts 5:21; ????? ?????, the first streak of dawn, the early dawn, Lk. 24:1
Luke reckons they came at DAWN not your fantasized DUSK/evening
If you want, you can write up your own gospels and peddle them but you can't have a grave visit earlier than DAWN. The word dark does not mean DUSK.
GE:
Re: <<<How nonsensical can it get?>>>
You are showing how <nonsensical> it gets.
John 20:1 is not Luke 24:1
So, Yes, <<<Sunday starts on Saturday evening>>>.
Exactly. THAT was exactly what _I_ said! So what are you complaining about it being <nonsensical> what John wrote and Luke did NOT write?
But hold it there!
<Sunday> does not <<start on Saturday evening>> It starts midnight, 12 p.m. Roman time.
But John here in 20:1 refers to the Bible-day, which starts sunset and the “early-of-dark-yet-being”, ‘prohï skotiaseti ousehs’ directly after sunset—NOT just <dark,-yet-being> (‘skotias, eti ousehs’), but “early of dark still being” - ‘prohï skotias eti ousehs’.
And by the way also, <Sunday> as the First Day of the week does not <<end in the evening>>. It ends sunset before, <evening>.
Now let’s look at what you further have to say; or rather, people who know, say:—
Re: <<<Luke 24:1 (KJV)
Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them>>>
Did I say anything different?
Re: <<<What is 'very early in the morning'? 'Early dawn'- barthus orthros [Sic.] ?????? (orthros)
Strong: G3722 GK: G3986 the dawn; the morning, Jn. 8:2; Acts 5:21; ????? ?????, the first streak of dawn, the early dawn, Lk. 24:1
Luke reckons they came at DAWN not your fantasized DUSK/evening>>>
Did I write <<<DUSK/evening>>> with reference to Luke 24:1?
Well quote me if you can. It seems you ALSO cannot read English!
Re: <<<you can't have a grave visit earlier than DAWN.>>>
Says who?
And WHY, not?
Re: <<<The word dark does not mean DUSK.>>>
Amen!
Re: <<<Sabbath starts in the evening, ends in the evening.>>>
On a point of order, Sabbath starts in the evening, ends in the afternoon before evening.
Re: <<<Sabbath ends and shops open and the women buy spices. Early in the morning (orthros)- Luke24:1 they make their way to the tomb>>>.
50% or less correct. Therefore your assignment will be:
Show the 50% or more incorrect!
Vooks:
Get a refund from your English teacher and demand an apology!
You can't even comprehend your own posts, what a sorry piece of work
GE:
So I fail you with flying colours. Thank me for the undeserved bonanza.
Vooks:
Let's look at all the trips to the grave
GE:
Allow me, Ten Visits at the tomb http://www.baptistboard.com/showthre...=1#post2218866
Condensed:
Visits at the tomb “on the First Day”
1) “Mary sees the stone removed”, “while being early darkness still”, dusk. Then Peter and John go to the tomb to see what Mary has told them. (Jn20:1-10)
2) “Earliest morning- darkness”, just after midnight, “the two women” (variant – the two Marys), “and certain others with them”, for the first time, “came to the sepulchre, bringing the spices they had prepared”. (Lk24:1) “They returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things to the eleven and to all the rest.” (“Then Peter stood up and ran to the tomb; and bending low over, he saw the linen clothes. He went back, wandering by himself about that what had happened.” (Lk24:9-12) Cf. John's account in 20:1-10. I can't say Luke talks of another visit by Peter, but it seems true because Luke doesn't mention John.)
3) These women to make sure, a second time came to the tomb “very early before sunrise”. (Mk16:2)
4) Mary from after the others had fled in fear (Mk16:8)
“had had stood without at the grave” (Jn20:11). At the time a gardener should begin work, about sunrise, Jesus “early … first appeared to Mary”. (Mk16:9)
5) Soon after – after they a third time have visited the tomb and “the angel explained” to them what had happened during the Resurrection – Jesus appears to the other women “as they went to tell his disciples”. (Mt28:5, 9)
Mary went to the tomb, three times, Jn20:1, Lk24:1, Mk16:2, and Mk16:9 when she “had remained standing behind” until, Jn20:11, Jesus appeared to her, “first”, Mk16:9, and alone, “at the grave”, Jn20:16.
The other women also went to the tomb, three times, Lk24:1, Mk16:2, and Mt28:5 when “the angel explained” to them what had happened during the Resurrection, and Jesus, as “they went to tell his disciples”, appeared to them. (Mt28:5, 9)
The answer to the ‘Easter enigma’ (John Wenham) is simple: Each Gospel contributed to the whole with one of several sources; each added a personal part that, put together, will bring the whole story of the Resurrection into proper perspective.
Tradition – that is, the Sunday-resurrection approach – makes of these several stories of several visits, the one and simultaneous occasion of Jesus’ resurrection. Contradictions, discrepancies and total confusion are the inevitable result! It was bad enough that this ‘solution’ to a self-created ‘riddle’ was ever offered just to protect Sunday’s presumed status of being the day of the Resurrection. It became a comedy of tragic proportions when Sunday-protagonists began to defend their presumptuousness through unlawful improvements on the Scriptures.
JOHN 20:1,2 sets all visits to the tomb in motion:
“The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early of dark yet [dusk / evening--'proh-i skotias eti ousehs'], unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away
from the sepulchre.”
Vooks:
The women visit the grave at night, they find the stone rolled away, go back and then in Luke 24:1 they come back AGAIN early morning with spices. This is madness or a sick George Carling joke, not theology
GE:
Of course this is YOUR <<madness>>, YOUR <<sick George Carling joke>>, YOUR non <<theology>> — not mine!
Because the Gospels have YOUR sequence of Mark 16 first, then Luke 24, reversed.
I placed Luke 24 as the first visit when the tomb was first discovered EMPTY and the women found out that they had brought their spices with, in vain.
Quote the Scripture which states:
<<<The women visit the grave at night, they find the stone rolled away, go back>>>
John 19:1, “The First Day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene being EARLY of dark still [dusk / evening--'proh-i skotias eti ousehs'], unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
Vooks:
Mary Magdalene visited the grave at DUSK (Saturday evening by our modern reckoning of time) on the first day of the week?
GE:
Spot on! Many thanks.
Vooks:
And then another bunch of clueless women visited the
tomb early in the morning having missed Mary Magdalene's memo?
GE:
What was, <<Mary Magdalene's memo>>?
I’ll tell you before you talk more nonsense :
John recorded it right here in chapter 20:1,2!!
So, the other Gospels tell you the other girls did NOT <<miss Mary Magdalene's memo>> ---YOU, missed it because YOU here, are the one here who is <clueless>.
Vooks:
Scriptures call them the UNLEARNED and the UNSTABLE. Watch this
John 20:1 (KJV)
The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre
Luke 24:1 (KJV)
Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
Questions
1. Are these two verses describing the SAME event?
2. If they are describing different trips to the grave, please tell us which trip happened FIRST
3. If they are describing different events, give us approximate times of the day (by modern standards) when they happened
PS: vooks, believes they are describing the same event and it happened around 0530H Sunday morning
GE:
Answers to
<<<Questions
<<<1. Are these two verses describing the SAME event?>>>
Answer:
No.
<<<Question
2. If they are describing different trips to the grave, please tell us which trip happened FIRST>>>
Answer:
John 20:1 (KJV) The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene when it was yet early dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre
<<<Question
3. If they are describing different events, give us approximate times of the day (by modern standards) when they happened>>>
Answer:
A. to <<<by modern standards>>>
Impossible.
Answer:
B. to <<<approximate times of the day>>>
The PRECISE times of the day:
To John 20:1 (KJV) The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene when it was yet early dark [prohïskotias eti ousehs], unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre
To Luke 24:1 (KJV) Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning just after midnight ['orthrou batheohs’], they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
PS: Please note, Vooks, for your information, that the two Scriptures are describing two different events and they happened around 11 hours before Sunday morning sunrise and 6 hours before Sunday morning sunrise respectively.
Vooks:
Mary Magdalene visits the tomb at around 1800H Saturday and then the 'women' 6 hours later at midnight, right?
GE:
Near enough, yes.
Just remember, AFTER <<1800H Saturday>> and AFTER <<midnight>>. But far more important, Note that Mary Magdalene in John 20:1,2 does not <<visit the tomb>>; she "SEES THE STONE away from the tomb". This observation of Mary starts the 'chain-reaction' afterwards of eight more visits to the tomb in that same night "on the First Day of the week".
Vooks:
Who informs Peter of the empty tomb, Mary or the other
women?
GE:
For people who don't know, when the word 'prohï’ appears, it must be 'the morning appears'.
Which per se, is correct.
But when appearing when the season appears, 'proh-i' will be not the morning, but it will be 'the early spring' or 'the early winter' or 'the early summer' or 'the early winter' which appears.
'Proh-i' may introduce any time 'period' just like 'opse'--"late", may "close" any or be "late in" any, given time-period.
'Proh-i' may introduce any time 'period' just like 'opse'--"late", may "close" any or be "late in" any, given time-period.
James 5:7 “until he receives (the) early and latter rain”—‘heohs labehi proïmon kai opsimon (brochehn)’.
Hosea 5:15 “early in affliction seek My Face”.
Psalm 46:1, 5 “God is a very present help in trouble … right early He shall help.”
Judges 7:3, 8, 9 “Depart early … every man unto his tent … that same night...”
Psalm 63:1, 4 “O God, Thou art my Mighty One—early will I seek Thee … thus will I bless Thee while I live.”
Proverbs 8:17 “I love them that love Me and those who seek Me early (in their lives) shall find Me.”
Psalm 90:14,15 “O satisfy us early that we may rejoice and be glad all our days with thy mercy; according to the days Thou hast afflicted us and the years we have seen evil, make us glad.”
Psalm 64 (65) ‘Eis to Telos, Psalmos tohi Dauid Ohideh’
Psalm 65 (66) ‘Eis to Telos, Ohideh Psalmou Anastaseohs’
So in Psalm 64 (65):8 “the early outgoings and afternoon Thou wilt cause to rejoice ... to THE END” thereof.
“Ends of the earth ... afar off (over) the sea” towards the west of the land at the time of harvest of “corn” at the time of “the springing (and) crowning of the year with Thy Goodness”, at the time of the passover, Psalm 65 (66) verse 6.
“If I regard iniquity in my heart, God will not hear me”, nor will He attend to the voice of my prayer. But come and hear all ye that fear the LORD, and i will declare what He hath done for my soul.
Deuteronomy 11:14 “He shall give in its season the early and the late rain”, ‘dohsei hueton kath’ hohran prohïmon kai opsimon”.
Jeremiah 5:24 “God who gives us the early and the latter rain according to the SEASON OF FULFILMENT [‘kata kairon PLEHROHSEOHS’] of the ordinance of HARVEST and has predestined / preserved / saved it for us [for last].”
“… the early of / in the late season”!
The litmus test:
Quote the Scripture which states:
<<<The women visit the grave at night, they find the
stone rolled away, go back>>>
Vooks:
Mark 16:1-4 (KJV)
And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. 2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun. 3 And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre? 4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great
GE:
Good.
Now quote the Scripture which states:
ONE woman visits the grave at the EARLY OF night still, she SEES the stone rolled away, RUNS back AND TELLS!
Vooks:
Who informs Peter of the empty tomb, Mary or the other women?
GE:
Mary Magdalene "runs" back and tells John and Peter, John 20:2b. "Peter THEREFORE went", verse 3a. Obviously what followed was Peter and John's FIRST discovery of the EMPTY tomb.
John does not inform us that Mary also told the other women ---one concludes that she did. This implies the women were not with Peter and John when Mary had told them.
So Peter and John knew that the tomb was empty, BEFORE any women did!
Which again explains the fact that the women together
went to the tomb the first time "bringing with their spices prepared and ready" ---thinking that the body was still in the sepulchre, and not knowing that the tomb was left empty by Jesus already in Luke 24.
Now it is Luke who tells that Peter went to the tomb ON HIS OWN and it is readily concluded from Luke’s story that Peter’s was a second visit not only because he is mentioned as having gone to the tomb on his own, but from how Peter ---like Cleopas and his fellow traveller--- also must have been “astonished” by the women’s report received from the two “messengers” that Jesus had been raised.
So Peter’s solo visit was after the women had learned about the empty tomb and Resurrection, and later than his first visit with John recorded by John. Luke 24 tells in verse 12 how Peter “was wandering in himself at that which was come to pass"— obviously the women’s discovery of the empty tomb and encounter with the two angels who told them that Jesus had had raised --- something not the women or he could have thought possible.
There is no doubt therefore that Peter at his first visit went because Mary had told him that she had seen the stone away from the tomb BUT DID NOT KNOW AND ONLY SURMISED that the body must have been removed from the tomb. So Peter and John went to make sure about the STONE and whether the body was really taken away or not as Mary had thought.
But Peter made his second journey to go and ascertain what the several women on instruction of the TWO ‘angelic’ WITNESSES had told the group of disciples before daybreak on ‘Sunday’ morning. Maybe he expected to find out from the messengers himself. We do not know. We only know he was confused— but this time by the report of Jesus’ Resurrection!
I therefore am of the opinion Nestle and Aland made a BIG MISTAKE to omit Peter’s visit at the tomb in Luke 24, and that Erasmus was absolutely RIGHT to include it.
Vooks:
GIBBERISH
Luke 24:8-11 (KJV)
And they remembered his words, 9 And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. 10 It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. 11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not
It was the women who broke the news to the 11.
Among the women was Mary Magdalene.
John 20:2 (KJV)
Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him
I don't know what Gehard is smoking or sniffing but Mary reported NOT a moved stone but a missing body! How did she know the body was missing? Did she infer all that from a moved rock? She went inside and saw the body missing.
GE:
Re: <<<It was the women who broke the news to the 11>>>
Which <<news>>?
The news of the Resurrection.
That report was recorded in Luke 24:9 and repeated in verse 23.
So, if I am <<smoking or sniffing>> anything, you must smoke and sniff the same stuff.
Re: <<<but Mary reported NOT a moved stone but a missing body!>>>
Yes.
WHEN did she <report> it?
In Luke 24:9 and 23 exactly what I stated in my previous post.
<<<How did she know the body was missing? Did she infer all that from a moved rock?>>>
Not this time; because THIS time as reported by LUKE, Mary Magdalene “…and others found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre” as per Mary’s FIRST report in JOHN 20:1,2.
But in Luke 24:1-3, “THEY ENTERED IN AND FOUND NOT THE BODY”. As you said, <<<She went inside and saw the body missing.>>>. In fact, THIS TIME.
But you, Vooks, FRAUDULENTLY CONFUSE and IDENTIFY the TWO visits.
God ---the LIVING and AWAKE Almighty and Righteous--- is reading our posts.
Vooks:
You don't make any sense
Mary Magdalene visits the tomb on Saturday evening, sees the stone rolled away, goes back and shares this with Peter and John who then dash to the open tomb, get inside and confirm the missing body. Mary actually meets the resurrected Christ soon as Peter and John depart from the grave(John 20:11-18). Yet Mary accompanies women 6 hours later to the tomb to anoint a MISSING BODY!
Mark 16:1-3 (KJV)
And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. 2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun. 3And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre? 4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great
Note
1. Mary Magdalene and some others had bought the spices
2. THEY (the ones who had spices) visited the tomb early in the morning. Morning by all stretch of hallucination can't be Saturday evening(1800H) nor midnight(0000H)
3. THEY (including Mary) wondered who was going to roll away the stone.
How could Mary who had witnessed the stone rolled away some 6 hours or so before wonder who would roll it away? Or are we to assume she had kept this information to herself all the way?
Read this verse carefully;
John 20:2 (KJV)
Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him
What does Mary Magdalene mean by WE if she alone visited the tomb?
Matthew 28:1 (KJV)
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre
The answer is she didn't, they went there with the women, finds the stone rolled away, she dashes back to tell Peter no John. They come back to the tomb and peep in, and leave. Mary is left inside the tomb and Jesus appears to her. Other women, on their way back, Jesus appears to them-Matthew 28:9
GE:
Re: <<<Mary Magdalene visits the tomb on Saturday evening, sees the stone rolled away, goes back and shares this with Peter and John who then dash to the open tomb, get inside and confirm the missing body. Mary actually meets the resurrected Christ soon as Peter and John depart from the grave. Yet Mary accompanies women 6 hours later to the tomb to anoint a MISSING BODY!>>>
You are pretending, such nonsense, untrue, contrary Scripture nonsense!
Stop your silly BLUFF and STOP WRITING YOUR OWN nonsense for Scripture!
Mary Magdalene does not <<visit the tomb>> : “She sees the stone having been taken out and away from the grave” – [‘blepei ton lithon ehrmenon ek tou mnehneiou’]
Re: <<on Saturday evening>>
...for the real words, “on the First Day of the week (it) being still early-of-dark” which is <<on Saturday evening>> OK.
Yes, and “THEN” = “still being early-of-dark”, “RUNS”— not merely <<goes>>, <<back and shares this with Peter and John who then dash to the open[ed] tomb, get inside and...>> NOT: <<<confirm the missing body>>>— but DISCOVER the body that was not there.
Mary did not yet know or see or tell that the body was not there or yet saw or knew or told WHY the body was no longer there. She only SPECULATED the body must have been taken away because she saw that the stone was taken out of the door of the tomb.
Do not feed me or anyone else, your ROTTEN GOSPEL!
The resurrected Christ actually meets Mary no ‘sooner’, than the following morning by the time a gardener would begin his day’s labour in his garden— which was sunrise 6 a.m. “on the First Day of the week” : “early” according to John 20 verses 11 to 17 and Mark 16:9 --- NOT according to John 20 verses 1 to 2!
Re: <<<Mary actually meets the resurrected Christ soon as Peter and John depart from the grave.>>>
Stop YOUR, rotten ‘gospel’! <<<Mary actually meets
the resurrected Christ soon as Peter and John depart from the grave>>>--- what a LIE!
Don’t you have shame?! Peter and John “returned home” from the grave soon after Mary had told them that the stone was taken out “WHEN BEING EARLY-OF-DARK STILL” that is, while it was yet evening after sunset and before proper “dark”. Which was about 10 - 11 hours before Jesus appeared to Mary first!
Your ‘gospel’ is abhorrent and blasphemous! Yes, exactly! It mocks the innocent ignorance of the women who 4 to 5 hours later went to the tomb <<<to anoint a MISSING BODY>>> which they thought was still there because that was why they “carried with them their spices ready and prepared”.
Your disrespectfulness is unbecoming a Christian.
Are you a Christian after all?! I would not have guessed!
Vooks:
John 20:2 (KJV)
Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him
Gerhard, who is WE? Is it Mary Magdalene and her shadow?
GE:
No Vooks, it is you who must say, What is "we know NOT"? That, was Mary's <shadow> of imagination and desperate thought --- of both her and Peter and John’s imagination and thought.
Vooks:
Gehard, WE means Mary was at the tomb with other people when they found the stone rolled away
GE:
If that were the case, John would have written, not, "Mary", not, the Singular, not, the Presence, and, not the Negation, and he would not have used the Verbs, "comes ... sees ... runs", and he would not have used the Noun-object in the Accusative, "stone" etcetera.
You are pretending stupid and attempting to be funny. But your attempts at acting comedian, are worse than your linguistic skills.
Vooks:
English is not your first nor second language but surely you have common sense which in your case may not be that common. The women found the stone rolled away, Mary dashes and reports this to Peter. The WE refer to all who were first at the tomb.
GE:
You lack the kind of common sense that is common to commoners like myself. So you resort to spinning your lies for the Gospel. God is not a God of confusion. You seem to worship your own head in which is nothing but confusion.
But you are pulling me down to your level. I won't react to nonsense like this and other posts of yours again.
Vooks:
Gehard, keep your infantile tantrums to yourself and concentrate;
John 20:2 (KJV)
Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.
Who is WE?
Mark 16:3-4 (KJV)
And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre? 4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great
GE:
"we -- Mary, Peter and John -- know NOT ..."
Vooks:
Funny man,
She is reporting TO them
Compare her WE with this,
Luke 24:21 (KJV)
But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
What is WE here, is it the two and all disciples including the Stranger Jesus?
Gehard the loner while busy snoring suffers a B&E at 0200H and makes a dash for the nearest cop station.
Bored cop: Wassup buddy?
Gerhard: am reporting a B&E, I was sleeping ALONE when I heard a loud noise in the kitchen. I dashed out and got here
Bored cop: go on, did you see anybody? How many attackers/burglars were they?
Gerhard: WE don't know how many they were
Bored cop: say what, thought you said you were alone?
Gerhard: I mean you and I, WE don't know how many they were, it was dark.
GE:
I am saving this as an example of the quality found in self-refutation.
Vooks:
John 20:2
On the First day of the week while being early of dark still, comes Mary Magdalene . . .
GE:
Don’t use my translation!
Vooks:
John 20:2
On the First day of the week while dark still, comes Mary Magdalene to the sepulchre and sees the stone taken away from the sepulchre. Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.
Who is WE?
Mark 16:2-4
And very early in the morning before sunrise the First Day of the week they came unto the sepulchre. And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre? 4 And when they looked again, they saw that the stone was rolled up and away: for it was very great
GE:
John 20:1,2
"while being early of dark still" Dusk
Mark 16:2-4
"very early before sunrise! Morning
---
John 20:1,2
"comes" Present Singular
Mark 16:2-4
"came" Past Tense Plural
---
John 20:1,2
"Mary Magdalene"
Mark 16:2-4
"they" Three women of verse 1
---
John 20:1,2
"sees"
Mark 16:2-4
"came to the grave" (how)
---
John 20:1,2
"Mary sees the STONE"
Mark 16:2-4
"Looking again RE-observing (how) the stone was CAST
---
John 20:1,2
"having been taken out of the tomb"
Mark 16:2-4
"the stone has been cast up-and-away" (how)
---
John 20:1,2
"then she runs (back)"
Mark 16:2-4
"then they (there) said"
---
John 20:1,2
"and comes to Simon Peter"
Mark 16:2-4
"spoke with ONE ANOTHER"
---
John 20:1,2
"she SAYS to them"
Mark 16:2-4
"they LOOKED again"
---
John 20:1,2
No angel(s)
Mark 16:2-4
angel inside "on the right"
---
John 20:1,2
No conversation between Mary or anyone else
Mark 16:2-4
Conversation with angel
---
John 20:1,2
Mary returned to disciples
Mark 16:2-4
women FLED from the tomb
---
John 20:1,2
Mary told Peter and John
Mark 16:2-4
Women "told no one anything"
What grossly obtuse mind can confuse these two events and identify these different Scriptures!
Vooks:
Gerhard, Who is WE, Mary Magdalene and her shadow?
GE:
. . .if that is what YOU say . . .
Vooks:
John 20:2 (ESV)
we do not know where they have laid him.
40 years of theorizing (not theology) and you have never seen it. Still reeling in shock
40 wasted years of wilderness. It's time to get to Canaan, time to rest from these shenanigans
GE:
Two women only, "Mary Magdalene and the other Mary", "saw where they ... Joseph and Nicodemus ... laid Him ... and Joseph closed the sepulchre ... and they ---two men and two women--- returned and went home."
Peter and John did not know that, the body was buried, or where, he was buried.
In John 20:2, NONE of <we> i.e., NONE of either Mary or Peter or John, “kn(e)w (that) they (“they” in fact was nobody!) have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, or, where they have laid him” . . . that is, reburied him which in fact He never was.
So in effect what one Vooks alleges falsely is that everyone, all the women as well as all the disciples KNEW for alleged fact that Jesus did not resurrect but that his body was removed from Joseph’s tomb and was buried elsewhere.
Therefore this Vooks fellow, here and for his past dozen or so affirmations, have consistently accused all four Gospels that they constitute FALSE WITNESS—AND—THAT JESUS, IS A FALSE CHRIST ---undeniable, by only insisting the words “we know not” REALLY MEAN <WE>, <<DO know>>.
Vooks:
You are incorrigibly daft.
1. Jesus had informed/taught the disciples of his death AND resurrection 3 days later.
2. NONE of the disciples expected his resurrection.
3. #2 is explained by their mourning.
If they (forgetting/not believing he would resurrec) tfound the empty tomb, the most obvious to all but marine invertebrates conclusion would be his body had been moved. Now, dead bodies don't move themselves, so they conclude somebody had taken it somewhere else.
This is exactly what Mary did. Her words are rational conclusions any believer would make until they met the Resurrected Christ. Study Peterand John's reactions upon finding his missing body. Did they dispute Mary's account? They believed his body was taken away and they went away even more depressed, their savior killed, his body stolen/seized by the authorities.
At this point, according to your madness, only Mary had stumbled upon an empty tomb. Only Mary could have concluded that Jesus' body was missing. But lo and behold, she utters the powerful plural pronoun WE. Tells me AT LEAST another individual was equally befuddled by a missing body. Who was it?
GE:
Good! Entangle yourself further and further in your own words
you already are so strangled you can only utter stuttering like here of the helpless and hopeless proud caught in his own high opinion of himself.
The more of this the better, please keep bringing it on!
Peter and John did not know that, the body was buried, or where, he was buried.
Vooks:
Really?
John 20:3-4 (KJV)
Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre. 4 So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre
So how in God's beloved earth did they locate the sepulchre? By aGPS?
Of course Mary was Marion Jones, a sprinter, she ran
faster than either of them
James:
Misinformation is one of Satan's tools to cause doubt and confusion. If the veracity of Holy Writ is erroneous in one point, all points become doubtful.
The chronology of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, The Christ, should not cast doubt on the fact of the Messiah.
The tomb was reported empty at dawn on a Sunday. This does not necessarily indicate exactly when it was vacated. Backing up three day and nights from 6 a.m. puts Jesus dying in the morning. Scripture says He died in the afternoon.
The details of the "Holy Week" are skewed by the traditions of men. "God is not the author of confusion."
The issue here is not resurrection time given in nanoseconds, but rather is Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of the Living God--victorious over death and the grave--Messiah, The Anointed One.
Where will we spend eternity?
Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
GE:
Re:
<<<The tomb was reported empty at dawn on a Sunday.>>>
“On the First Day of the week BEING EARLY OF DARK STILL / YET [‘prohï skotias eti ousehs’] Mary Magdalene comes, sees the STONE rolled away … runs (back) comes to Simon Peter and (John) and TELLS them . . .” WHAT?
What she had seen? No! She tells them what she THOUGHT had happened but in FACT had NOT happened.
Nevertheless John 20:1,2 is the first and only <report> of the “STONE rolled away”.
Mary did not look inside the tomb nor entered into the tomb nor did anybody else.
What Mary said in John 20:2 was her assumptions—her WRONG assumptions; NOT WHAT happened really.
One:
Mary did not <report> that <<the tomb was empty>>.
She <reported> that she saw "the STONE ROLLED AWAY”
And Two:
Mary did not <report> anything <<at dawn>>. She reported what she reported “WHILE IT STILL WAS EARLY OF DARK / WHILE IT STILL WAS DUSK”.
It is <<<misinformation … one of Satan's tools to cause doubt and confusion>>> to claim: <<<The tomb was reported empty at dawn on a Sunday>>>.
Vooks:
You are misinforming believers with your ludicrous theories that are devoid of sense.
Go back to Mark. The women find the stone rolled and they get in, Mary is among them.
Because in John you are not told she got in , you ASSUME, she just saw a stone rolled away and started hallucinating like you?
Why would she go all the way to a to,b that was at least a mile off, get there and then run back without stooping?
We know she knew the body was missing because she said so!
GE:
Re:
<<<Go back to Mark. The women find the stone rolled and they get in, Mary is among them.>>>
This is not Mark; it is Luke, 24:2,3, 10.
Vooks:
THIS IS MARK!
Mark 16:1-9 (KJV)
And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. 2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun. 3 And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre? 4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great. 5 And entering into the sepulchre
Who are THEY but Mary Magdalene,Mary the Mother of James, and Salome
GE:
Re:
<<<Because in John you are not told she got in>>>
Yes, you too are told she did <<not … get in>>
Vooks:
WHERE are you told she did not get in? How did she conclude the body was TAKEN AWAY? How can an open tomb equate missing body? Mary Magdalene's IQ is several times yours
GE:
Re:
<<<Because … you ASSUME, she just saw a stone rolled away>>>
No, John is it who states for fact: “Mary comes and sees the stone taken away from the sepulchre”.
No <assuming>.
Vooks:
She did not report a rolled stone but a missing body. how does a rolled stone turn into a missing body! She reports a missing body because she KNEW the body was missing, not because she thought it was missing. Why would she guess the body is missing when she could have easily verified that by peeping in, which is what she had come to do
GE:
No accusing falsely <<like you>>, that anyone <<<ASSUME(d) … and started hallucinating>>>.
I ask you again, Are you a Christian?
Vooks:
You deny scriptures, the Word of God, don't you fear God?
GE:
Re:
<<<Why would she go all the way to a to,b that was at least a mile off, get there and then run back without stooping?>>>
Why ask me? Ask God and the Holy Spirit and John.
But you asked me. So I’ll show you why.
Here are the words with your answer in them: “Mary comes and sees the stone taken away from the sepulchre”. No <assuming>— that was why she <<<r(a)n back without stooping>>>.
Vooks:
Mary reports a missing body not an open tomb
GE:
Re:
<<<We know she knew the body was missing because
she said so!>>>
Who’s your <we>? You? So how would you know?
<<because she said so>>, you, say.
Now give us the Scripture where Mary said that.
Vooks:
Mary reported a missing body!
John 20:2 (KJV)
and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him
Brain is a terrible thing to waste.
Let me help you.
Acts 9:11-12 (KJV)
and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, 12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight
1. Ananias is sent to Paul
2. Paul had seen a vision of Ananias laying hands on him THAT HE MAY RECEIVE HIS SIGHT
3. Ananias was sent to Paul so he may receive sight.
Acts 9:17 (KJV)
And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost
Ananias is sent so that;
1. Paul may receive his sight
2. Paul may receive baptism of the Holy Spirit
Did Ananias make up the baptism of the Holy Spirit bit seeing in verse 11 and 12 none of that is mentioned?
GE:
It has nothing to do with Mary allegedly reporting <<a missing body>>.
Vooks:
It means even though we are not told of specific instructions to lay hands on Paul so that he may receive the Holy Spirit, the fact that later Ananias said so does not mean he made up that bit.
Likewise, you are told Mary saw the tomb opened and later she confidently reports a missing body. Must mean she saw no body.
Mary ALLEGED NOTHING about a missing body, she only naturally concluded his body was stolen/taken away.
This is what she reported
John 20:2 (ESV)
They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him.”
WHERE are you told she did not get in? How did she conclude the body was TAKEN AWAY? How can an open tomb equate missing body? Mary Magdalene's IQ is several times yours
GE:
How can an opened, tomb equate a missing body?
You should ask yourself that.
What do you think the women went to the tomb "deepest of morning of night carrying their spices prepared and ready", for?
Because Mary had told them the body was <missing>?
All those women had more trust in Mary's or their own <<IQ>> for that matter, than you seem to have, because they seem to have believed her when she must have told them exactly what she told Peter and John, that she saw "the STONE ROLLED AWAY" and no more, and that she must
have misreckoned herself that the body was taken away.
Vooks:
She did not report a rolled stone but a missing body. how does a rolled stone turn into a missing body! She reports a missing body because she KNEW the body was missing, not because she thought it was missing. Why would she guess the body is missing when she could have easily verified that by peeping in, which is what she had come to do
GE:
This, <<<She did not report a rolled stone but a missing body>>> is a blatant denial of Scripture, you!
<<<how does a rolled stone turn into a missing body!>>>
That is what YOU must explain!
<<<She reports a missing body because she KNEW the body was missing,>>>
<<<she KNEW>>>?! Blatant <denial of Scripture> and perverting <<the Word of God>>, YOU!
Vooks:
Why would she guess the body is missing when she could have easily verified that by peeping in, which is what she had come to do
GE:
Because she simply did not <<verif(y) that by peeping in>> but did what the TEXT says she did : "RUNS BACK to Peter and John".
Again: Why would Mary and the other women at deepest morning of night come to the tomb CARRYING WITH THEM THEIR SPICES READY AND PREPARED" to anoint a <<missing body>>?! Was that <<<what she had come to do>>>) to anoint a <<missing body>>?!?! . . . a body <<she
KNEW>> : <<was missing>>?!?! Insanity!
Vooks:
Mary and other women coming to the tomb is the SAME event
as Mary coming to the tomb in John.
Think for once,think.
1. Mary arrives at the tomb, sees the stone rolled away
2. Mary accompanied by other women go to anoint the body 6 hours later
3. Between #1 and #2, Mary has reported a missing body to Peter and John who ran to the tomb and confirmed the same, and Mary had been left at the tomb weeping ,and The resurrected Christ had already appeared to him!
Her report of the missing body, it means the body was missing. If she thought the body was missing, the Holy Spirit should have CORRECTED that as He does severally. Do you want examples of Holy Spirit correcting erroneous PERCEPTIONS?
John 11:13 (KJV)
Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
GE:
<<<Her report of the missing body>>>
You’re LYING. Or quote it! Mary never <reported> Jesus’ body as <<missing>>! Not even as having been removed. The Holy Spirit WITH THIS VERY SCRIPTURE corrects your LYING tongue.
Vooks:
John 20:2 (ESV)
They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him.”
Lessons we can learn from this statement
1. By this time, Jesus was both dead and buried
2. Mary KNEW Jesus' body was NOT in the tomb
3. Mary SUSPECTED the body had been taken away
4. Mary could not connect an empty tomb with the glorious assurance or resurrection
5. Peter and John were BOTH unaware of these developments of a rolled stone AND a missing tomb
6. Peter and John were staying together at least that Sunday. Or one paid the other an early morning visit.
Mary reports a missing body not an open tomb
GE:
Mary reports neither <<<a missing body>>> nor <<<an open tomb>>>.
She <reported> "THE STONE ROLLED AWAY from the tomb" in John 20:1,2.
Yes the tomb was opened when she saw "the stone rolled away". Still, what she "tells" Peter and John, was "THE STONE WAS ROLLED AWAY from the tomb." And then Mary told what she herself of herself with no grounds at all THOUGHT: That "they must have taken the body away and laid it somewhere we do NOT, know where . . ." which in no way at all was true but in every sense MISRECKONED.
Vooks:
Nonsense
This is what Mary reported in first person
John 20:2 (ESV)
They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him.”
My bible even has quotation marks indicating her speech
But your Afrikaan (per)version has this
John 20:2 (APV)
"somebody rolled away the stone!"
Mary and other women coming to the tomb is the SAME
event as Mary coming to the tomb in John.
Think for once,think.
1. Mary arrives at the tomb, sees the stone rolled away
2. Mary accompanied by other women go to anoint the body 6 hours later
3. Between #1 and #2, Mary has reported a missing body to Peter and John who ran to the tomb and confirmed the same, and Mary had been left at the tomb weeping ,and The resurrected Christ had already appeared to him!
GE:
Sorry, I find such incorrigible nonsensical disorderliness far too far above my <<incorrigible daftness>>.
Re:
<<<Mary and other women coming to the tomb is the SAME event as Mary coming to the tomb in John>>>
for answer to my question,
"Why would Mary and the other women at deepest morning of night come to the tomb CARRYING WITH THEM THEIR SPICES READY AND PREPARED" to anoint a <<missing body>>?! Was that <<<what she had come to do>>>) to anoint a <<missing body>>?!?! . . . a body <<she KNEW>> : <<was missing>>?!?!",
is perfectly acceptable as the answer of the ages of TRADITION, thanks
Vooks:
Mary's visit recorded in John and that of Mark are one and the same
Else Mary is playing dumb like some people on this board by accompanying women to anoint a missing body of a resurrected Christ she met a few hours before
GE:
<<one and the same>> . . .
Quote: Originally Posted by Vooks
Think for once,think.
1. Mary arrives at the tomb, sees the stone rolled away
2. Mary accompanied by other women go to anoint the body 6 hours later
3. Between #1 and #2, Mary has reported a missing body to Peter and John who ran to the tomb and confirmed the same, and Mary had been left at the tomb weeping ,and The resurrected Christ had already appeared to him!
. . . <<6 hours later>>?!
Vooks:
John 20:2 (ESV)
They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him.”
Lessons we can learn from this statement
1. By this time, Jesus was both dead and buried
2. Mary KNEW Jesus' body was NOT in the tomb
3. Mary SUSPECTED the body had been taken away
4. Mary could not connect an empty tomb with the glorious assurance or resurrection
5. Peter and John were BOTH unaware of these developments of a rolled stone AND a missing tomb
6. Peter and John were staying together at least that Sunday. Or one paid the other an early morning visit.
GE:
Lessons we can learn from this statement IN RETROSPECTION:
1. By the time Mary saw the stone rolled away, Jesus already RESURRECTED and the stone had been cast away from the tomb.
2. Mary knew “NOT” that Jesus' body was not in the tomb any more or that He had already resurrected. Therefore, retrospectively we, know for sure that Mary was only THINKING that Jesus’ body was “taken away” and was reburied—“laid”, somewhere else.
Therefore absolutely correct:
<<<Mary SUSPECTED the body had been taken away>>>!!!
Hurray! Marvellous! He’s seen the light!
Vooks really sees it! . . .
<<<Mary could not connect an empty tomb with the glorious assurance or resurrection>>>!
Yes, for sure . . .
<<<Peter and John were BOTH unaware of these developments of a rolled stone AND a missing tomb>>> BECAUSE JESUS HAD RESURRECTED..
But surely not so sure <<<Peter and John were staying together at least that Sunday. Or one paid the other an early morning visit.>>>
. . . in any case, what does it matter?
Vooks:
That is exactly how disjointed your gibberish of theology sounds. How old are you?
You claim Mary visited the tomb alone first some 6 hours before the women.
Can you explain the events between these two visits?
Did Peter and John visit the tomb between the visits or after?
Illustration
Is it
Mary Alone<~~~~~6hrs~~~~~>at least 3 women~~~>Peter and John
Or
Mary Alone<~~~~~6hrs~~~Peter and John~~~~>at least 3 women
GE:
Ten Visits At the Tomb
1. The Interment
John 19:41
Now in the place where he was crucified
Ehn de en tohi topohi hopou estaurohtheh
there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre,
kehpos, kai en tohi kehpohi mnehmeion kainon
wherein was never man yet laid.
en hohi oudepoh oudeis ehn tetheimenos.
Mark 15:46d
Joseph laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of rock.
Iohsehph katethehken auton en mnehmati ho ehn lelatomehmenon ek petras.
Luke 23:53
He laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone,
Houtos Ethehken auton en mnehmati lakseutohi
wherein never man before was laid.
hou ouk ehn oudeis oupoh keimenos
Matthew 27:60
Joseph laid it in his new tomb,
Johsehph ethehkan autohi en tohi kainohi autou mnehmeiohi
which he had hewn out in the rock . . .
ho elatomehsen en tehi petrai . . .
Luke 23:55
And the women also followed after—
Katakolouthehsasai de hai gunaikes,
which came with him from Galilea,
haitines ehsan sunelehluthuiai ek tehs Galilaias autohi,
they beheld the sepulchre and how his body was laid.
etheasanto to mnehmeion, kai hohs etetheh to sohma autou.
Mark 15:47
And Mary Magdalene and Mary of Joses
Heh de Maria heh Magdalehneh kai Maria heh Iohsehtos
beheld where he was laid.
etheohroun pou tetheutai.
Matthew 27:61
And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary,
Ehn de ekei Mariam heh Magdalehneh kai heh alleh Maria
sitting over against the sepulchre.
kathehmenai apenanti tou tafon.
John 19:42
There therefore because of the Jews’ preparation,
Ekei oun dia tehn paraskeuehn tohn Ioudaiohn
for the sepulchre was nigh at hand, laid they Jesus.
hoti engus ehn to mnehmeion, ethehkan ton Iehsoun.
Mark 15:46f
And he rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre.
Kai prosekulisen lithon epi tehn thuran tou mnehmeiou.
Matthew 27:60
...and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre,
Kai proskulisas lithon megan tehi thurai tou mnehmeiou,
and departed.
apehlthen.
Luke 23:56a
And the women returned,
Hupostrepsasai de
and prepared spices and ointments.
hehtoimasan arohmata kai mura.
Luke 23:54
Because that day was the Preparation
Kai hehmera ehn Paraskeuehs
and the Sabbath drew on.
kai Sabbaton epephohsken.
2. Tomb secured
Matthew 28:5a
Answering, the angel told the women . . .
Apokritheis de ho anggelos eipen tais gunaiksin:
Matthew 27:62
Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation,
Tehi de epaurion hehtis estin meta tehn Paraskeuehn
the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
sunehchthehsan hoi archiereis kai hoi Farisaioi
63
saying, Sir, we remember
pros Pilaton, legontes: Kurie, emnehsthehmen
that that deceiver said while he was yet alive,
hoti ekeinos ho planos eipen eti dzohn:
(the) third day I wil rise again.
meta treis hehmeras egeiromai.
64
Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure
Keleuson oun asphalisthehnai ton tafon
for as long as it is the third day
heohs tehs tritehs hehmeras
lest his disciples come by night,
mehpote elthontes hoi mathehtai nuktos
and steal him away and say unto the people,
klepsohsin auton kai eipohsin tohi laohi
he was raised from the dead;
ehgertheh apo tohn nekrohn kai
so the last error shall be worse than the first.
estai heh eschateh planeh cheirohn tehs prohtehs.
65
Pilate said unto them, Ye have a watch :
Epheh autois ho Pilatos: Echete koustohdian!
go your way, make it as sure as ye can.
Hupagete asphalisthase hohs oidate!
66
So they went, and made the sepulchre sure,
Hoi de poreuthentes asphalisanto ton tafon
sealing the stone, and setting a watch.
sphragisantes ton lithon meta tehs koustohdias.
3. The angel of the Lord and the Resurrection
Matthew 28:1
In the end of the Sabbath,
Opse de Sabbatohn
As it (the end of the Sabbath) began to dawn
tehi epifohskousehi
toward the first day of the week,
eis Mian sabbatohn
set out Mary Magdalene and the other Mary
ehlthen heh Mariam heh Magdaleneh kai heh alleh Maria
to see the sepulchre.
theohrehsai ton tafon
2
And behold, there was a great earthquake:
kai idou seismos egeneto megas
for the angel of the Lord descending from heaven,
anggelos gar Kuriou katabas eks ouranou
came and rolled back the stone (from the door)
kai proselthohn apekulisen ton lithon [apo tehs thuras]
and sat upon it.
kai ekathehto epanoh autou.
3
His countenance was like lightning,
Ehn de heh eidea autou hohs estrapeh
and his raiment white as snow;
kai to enduma autou leukon hohs chiohn.
4
And for fear of him the keepers did shake,
Apo de tou phobou autou eseisthehsan hoi tehrountes
and became as dead.
kai egenehthehsan hohs nekroi . . .
Matthew 27:52b
Many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Kai polla sohmata tohn kekoimehmenohn hagiohn ehgerthehsan
53
and came out of the graves after his resurrection,
kai eksehlthontes ek tohn mnehmeiohn meta tehn egersin autou
and went into the holy city and appeared unto many.
eisehlthon eis tehn hagian polin kai enephanisthehsan pollois.
Matthew 28:5a
. . . answered the angel the women and explained to them.
. . . apokritheis de ho anggelos tais gunaiksin.
4. The Opened Tomb
John 20:1
The first day of the week
Tehi de Miai tohn sabbatohn,
cometh Mary when yet early dark it was,
Maria heh Magdaleneh erchetai proh-i skotias eti ousehs
unto the sepulchre and seeth the stone
eis to mnehmeion kai blepei ton lithon
taken away from the sepulchre,
ek tou mnehmeiou.
2
Then she runneth
Trechei oun
and cometh to Simon Peter and to the other disciple,
kai erchetai pros Simohna Petron kai pros ton allon mathehtehn
whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them,
hon ephilei ho Iehsous, kai legei autois:
They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre
Ehran ton Kurion ek tou mnehmeiou
And we know not where they have laid him.
kai ouk oidamen pou ethehkan auton.
5. Peter and John
John 20:3
Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple,
Eksehlthen oun ho Petros kai ho allos mathehtehs
and came to the sepulchre.
kai ehrchonto eis to mnehmeion ...
6b
Then cometh Simon Peter and went into the sepulchre.
Kai (Petros) eisehlthen eis to mnehmeion.
8
Then went in also that other disciple
Tote oun eisehlthen kai ho allos mathehtehs
... and he saw and believed that as yet they knew not
... kai eiden kai episteusen oudepoh gar ehideisan
the Scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.
tehn Graphehn hoti dei auton ek nekrohn anastehnai.
6. The Empty Tomb
Luke 24:1
Now upon the First Day of the week,
Tehi de Miai tohn sabbatohn
VERY EARLY IN THE MORNING
orthrou batheohs
Luke 23:55
they came unto the sepulchre ... and certain others with them,
epi to mnehma ehlthon (hai duo gunaikis) (kai tines sun autais)
bringing the spices which they had prepared.
pherousai ha hehtoimasan arohmata.
Luke 24:2
And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.
Heuron de ton lithon apokekulismenon apo tou mnehmeiou.
3
And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.
eiselthousai de, oux heuron to sohma tou Kuriou Iehsou.
4
And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout,
Kai egeneto en tohi aporeisthai autas peri toutohn:
behold, two men stood
kai idou, andres duo epestehsan
by them in shining garments.
autais en esthehti astraptousehi.
5
As they were afraid
Emphobohn de genomenohn autohn
and bowed down their faces to the earth,
kai klinousohn ta prosohpa eis tehn gehn,
they said unto them,
eipan pros autas:
Why seek ye The Living among the dead?
Ti dzehteite ton Dzohnta meta to nekrohn?
6
He is not here, but was raised: remember
Ouk estin hohde alla ehgertheh: mnehsthehte
how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, saying,
hohs elalehsen hehmin eti ohn en tehi Galilaiai, legohn,
7
The Son of man must be delivered and be crucified
Ton Uion tou Anthrohpou hote dei paradothehnai
into the hands of sinful men
eis cheiras anthrohpohn hamartohlohn
and the third day rise again.
kai staurohthehnai kai tehi tritehi hehmerai anastehnai.
8
And they remembered his words
kai emnehsthehsan tohn rhehmatohn autou.
9
and returned from the sepulchre and told
kai hupostrepsasai apo tou mnehmeiou apehngeilan
all these things unto the eleven and to all the rest.
tauta panta tois hendeka kai pasan tois loipois.
Luke 24:13,19,22
Two of them ... said unto him, Certain women of our company
Duo eks autohn ... eipan autohi: Gunaikes tines eks hehmohn
which were early at the sepulchre ... astonished us,
genomenai orthrinai epi to mnehmeion ... eksestehsan hehmas,
23
and not finding his body, they came, saying that
kai meh heurousai to sohma autou ehlthon, legousai
they had also seen a vision of angels
kai optasian angelohn heohrakenai
who said that he was alive.
hoi legousin auton dzehn.
Luke 24:10
It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna
Ehsan de heh Magdalehneh Maria kai Iohanna
and Mary of James and other women with them
kai Maria heh Iakohbou kai hai loipai sun autais
which told these things unto the disciples.
elegon pros tous apostolous tauta.
11
And their words seemed to them as
Kai ephanehsan enohpion autohn hohsei
idle tales, and they believed them not.
lehpos ta rehmata tauta, kai ehpistoun autais. [Cf. Mark 16:8.]
7. Peter has another look
Luke 24:24
And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre
Kai apehlthon tines tohn sun hehmin epi ta mnehmeion
and found it even so as the women had said:
kai heuron houtohs kathohs kai hai gunaikes eipon:
but him they saw not.
auton de ouk eidon.
24:12
Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre;
Ho de Petros anastas edramen epi to mnehmeion
and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves,
kai parakupsas blepei ta othonia keimena mona,
and departed, wondering in himself
Kai apehlthen pros auton heauthaumadzohn
at that which was come to pass.
to gegonos.
8. Women return to “see again”
Mark 16:2
And very early in the morning the First Day of the week
Kai lian proh-i tehi Miai tohn sabbatohn
they came upon the sepulchre
erchontai epi to mnehma
at the rising of the sun.
anateilantos tou hehliou.
3
And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away
Kai elegon pros heautas, Tis apokulisei hehmin ?
the stone from the door of the sepulchre?!
ton lithon ek tehs thuras tou mnehmeiou?!
4
And when they looked again, they saw that
Kai anablepsasai theohrousin, hoti,
the stone was cast away uphill :
anakekulistai ho lithos
despite it was very great.
ehn gar megas sfodra.
5
Again entering into the sepulchre, they saw
Kai eiselthousai eis to mnehmeion eidon
a young man sitting on the right side,
neaniskon kathehmenon en tois deksiois
clothed in a long white garment
peribeblehmenon stolehn leukehn
And they were frightened.
Kai eksethambehsehsan.
6
And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted :
Ho de legei autais? Meh ekthambeisthe!
Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth which was crucified :
Iehsoun dzehteite ton Nadzarehnon ton estaurohmenon.
He was raised [is risen]; he is not here :
Ehgertheh, ouk estin hohde;
Behold the place where they laid him.
ide ho topos hopou ethehkan auton!
7
But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter
Alla hupagete eipate tois mathehtais autou kai tohi Petrohi
that he goeth before you into Galilee :
hoti proagei humas eis to Galilaian.
there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.
Ekei auton opsesthe kathohs eipen humin.
8
And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre;
Kai ekselthousai ephugon apo tou mnehmeiou,
for they trembled and were amazed :
eichen gar autas tromos kai ekstasis.
neither said they anything to any(one);
Kai oudeni ouden eipan,
for they were afraid.
ephobounto gar.
9. FIRST APPEARANCE
John 20:11
But Mary had had stood after at the sepulchre without
Maria de heistehkei pros tohi mnehmeiohi eksoh
weeping; and as she wept, she stooped down into the spulchre
klaiousa; hohs de eklaien parekupsen eis to mnehmeion
12
and seeth two angels in white sitting,
kai theohrei duo angelous en leukois kathedzomenous,
the one at the head, and the other at the feet
hena pros tehi kephalehi kai hena pros tois posin
where the body of Jesus had lain.
hopou ekeito to sohma tou Iehsou.
13
And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou?
Kai legousin autehi ekeinoi: Gunai, ti klaieis?
She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord,
Legei autois, hoti ehran ton Kurion mou,
and I know not where they have laid him.
kai ouk oida pou ethehkan auton.
14
And when she had thus said, she turned herself back,
Tauta epousa estrapheh eis ta opisoh
and saw Jesus standing,
kai theohrei ton Iehsoun hestohta,
and knew not that it was Jesus.
kai ouk ehidei hoti Iehsous estin.
15
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou?
Legei autehi ho Jehsous: Ginai, ti klaieis?
Whom seekest thou? She supposing him to be the gardener,
Tina dzehteis?Ekeineh dokousa hoti ho kehpouros estin,
saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence,
legei autohi: Kurie, ei su ebastasas auton,
tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him.
eipe moi pou ethehkas auton, kagoh auton aroh.
16
Jesus saith unto her, Mary!
Legei autehi Jehsous: Mariam!
She turned herself, and saith unto him,
Strapheisa ekeineh, legei autohi Hebraisti:
Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
Rabbouni (ho legetai didaskale).
17
Jesus saith unto her, Don’t stay here by me;
Legei autehi Iehsous: Meh mou haptou,
for I am not yet ascended to my Father:
oupoh gar anabebehka pros ton Patera.
But go to my brethren, and say unto them,
Poreuou de pros tous adelphous mou, kai eipe autois:
I ascend unto my Father, and your Father;
Anabainoh pros ton Patera mou kai Patera humohn
and to my God, and your God.
kai Theon mou kai Theon humohn.
Mark 16:9
Thus, risen,
Anastas de
Jesus early the First Day of the week
proh-i Prohtehi sabbatou
appeared first to Mary Magdalene.
ephaneh prohton Mariai tehi Magdalehnehi.
John 20:18
Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples
Erchetai Mariam heh Magdalehneh anggelousa tois mathehtais
that she had seen the Lord,
hoti: Heohraka ton Kurion;
and that he had spoken these things unto her.
kai tauta eipen autehi.
Mark 16:10
And she went and told them
Ekeineh poreutheisa apehngeilen tois
that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
met’ autou genomenois, penthousi kai klaiousin.
And they, when they had heard that he was alive
Kakeinoi akousantes hoti dzei
and had been seen of her, believed not.
kai etheatheh hup’ autehs ehpistehsan kai ouk episteusen autehi.
10. SECOND APPEARANCE
Mary Magdalene therefore was not with them when the other women together with Joanna and Mary of James had gone to the sepulchre again where . . .
Matthew 28:5a
. . . answered the angel the women and explained to them...
. . . apokritheis de ho anggelos eipen tais gunaiksin . . .
Fear not ye:
Meh phobeisthe humeis:
for I know that ye seek Jesus which was crucified.
Oida gar hoti Iehsoun ton estaurohmenon dzehteite.
6
He is not here because he was raised as he said.
Ouk estin hohde; ehgertheh gar kathohs eipen.
Come in! See the place where the Lord lay.
Deute idete ton topon hopou ekeito.
7
Indeed rather, Go quickly and tell his disciples
Kai tachu poreutheisai eipate tois mathehtais autou
that he was raised and is risen from the dead!
hoti ehgertheh apo tohn nekrohn.
And behold, he goeth before you into Galilee;
Kai idou proagei humas eis tehn Galilaian;
there will you see him.
ekei auton opsesthe.
Behold, I command you!
Idou eipon humin!
8
And they departed quickly from the sepulchre
Kai apelthousai tachu apo tou mnehmeiou
with fear and great joy
meta phobou kai charas megalehs
and did run to bring his disciples word.
edramon apangeilai tois mathehtois autou.
9
And as they went to tell his disciples,
Hohs de eporeuonto appangeilai tois mathehtais autou,
behold, Jesus met them, saying,
Kai idou Iehsous hupehntehsen autais
Hail, joy!
legohn: Chairete!
And they came and held him by the feet
Hai de proselthousai ekratehsan autou tous podas
and worshipped him.
kai prosekunehsan autohi.
10
Then said Jesus unto them,
Tote legei autais ho Iehsous:
Be not afraid : Go!
Meh phobeisthe : Hupagete!
Tell my brethren
Appangeilate tois adelphois mou
that they go into Galilee; there will they find me.
hina apelthohsin eis tehn Galilaian, kakei me opsontai.
04 05 15
Vooks:
. . .
This is what Mary reported in first person
John 20:2 (ESV)
They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him.”
My bible even has quotation marks indicating her speech
But your Afrikaan (per)version has this
John 20:2 (APV)
"somebody rolled away the stone!"
GE:
This is NOT <<<what Mary reported in first person>>>. That was what Mary told Peter and John THAT SHE, THOUGHT.
Or Mary lied because they have NOT taken the Lord out of the Tomb.
And you must also lie because you claim and insist that that was what Mary <reported> for fact.
Vooks:
Thinking shouldn't be a nightmare.
Mary reports a missing body not an open tomb.
I doubt you want to spend another forty years banging your head against this TRUTH.
At this point nobody knew WHY the body was missing. Was it eaten up by animals, stolen and re-buried elsewhere?
Whatever reason they had for the missing body, it had to INVOVLE living men because;
1. Animals could not roll away the stone
2. Dead bodies at least in Israel (not sure about Zuma land) remain in the same place and position unless 'compelled by an
external force- Newton's Law of INERTIA
3. Jesus resurrected
#3 is problematic because ALL the disciples were in various states of unbelief concerning Jesus resurrection. None expected it. So we are left with #2.
If Mary visits alone (she was not) at night, you can bet she was not bringing the guards apples. She wanted to get in and anoint her master's body, finish the job they had stArted.
So when she finds an open tomb, she does the most natural and commonsensical thing, peep inside. This is corroborated by her account in John of a missing body. It is further corroborated by Mark's account. The women relieved upon finding the rock rolled off the entrance GOT IN. Why would Mary in the same situation run like mad from the open tomb without as much as looking in?
You think she fears ghost or something?
Your gibberish garbage 'harmonizing' of the resurrection account. is built on the silliest argument from silence I have heard in decades
Mary KNEW of a missing body from an empty tomb not a rolled stone!
She wrongly but sincerely guessed the cause of a missing body to be men.
Why should an open tomb startle Mary to run back and report to Peter and John while the women gladly move in to finish their job?
It means an open tomb in and of itself provides no conclusive evidence of anything! Besides, Mary reports a missing body. That's scriptures not this Afrikaan garbage translation
GE:
I have finished with you.
But while saying cheers, thanks for having exposed and proven yourself in your posts for what you truly are. Your 'arguments' are clear and unmistakable testimony to your and their own character and integrity.
I am now going to have a two hours long shower.
Vooks:
Don spew that nonsensical garbage anywhere near humanity
26 06 15
John 20v1 “early darkness”
by
Gerhard Ebersöhn
http://www.biblestudents.co.za
biblestudents@imaginet.co.za
26 06 15